Is Kobe Bryant Really a Top-10 NBA Player of All-Time?
NBA June 15th. 2009, 1:15pm
Jon Barry, Michael Wilbon, Jeff Van Gundy – if you were watching ESPN last night, it seemed like everyone with mic was in agreement: Kobe Bryant was one of the 10 greatest players in NBA history. Of course, there was no back-and-forth discussion about it; the analysts spoke about this statement as fact. But is it? Or is it just a knee-jerk reaction to Kobe’s 4th championship and first Finals MVP?
Here’s what Kobe did against rookie Courtney Lee and Mikael Pietrus:
* 58-for-135 in the series (42 percent) from the field, including no game shooting over 48 percent
* his minutes per game in the series: 43 (up from 36 in the regular season), which may account for his increase in rebounds (5.6) and assists (7.4) in the Finals over his regular season numbers (5.2, 4.9 respectively)
Undeniable Locks in the Top 10: Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird. In NBA history, those might as well be the Big 5.
That leaves 5 spots to round out the Top 10:
Kareem Abdul Jabbar: Should be in the first group – 20 year career, 6 MVPs, 6 titles. Most points in NBA history. HE’S A LOCK.
Shaq: Four titles, 3 Finals MVPs, one regular season MVP, and widely regarded as the most physically dominant center, offensively, since Wilt.
Hakeem Olajuwon: Two titles (when Jordan briefly quit), most blocks in NBA history, and 8th in steals (no center is in the Top 30).
Tim Duncan: The Big fundamental has four NBA titles (MVP 3 times), two league MVP awards. The knocks, which have nothing to do with basketball: Doesn’t have the sizzle, plays in a weak market, and the Spurs have been branded as boring for the last decade.
Oscar Robertson: Only player to average a triple double for a season. If he wasn’t the best guard in the 60s, then it was West.
Jerry West: The logo averaged 27-6-5 for his career, won two titles, and boasts the 2nd greatest postseason scoring average in NBA history (after Jordan).
Dr. J: Between the ABA and NBA, he’s got 3 titles, 4 MVPs, and is the 5th leading scorer in NBA history.
A write-in vote: Bob Cousy, according to one author.
Kobe: It’s much easier to scrutinize his career, since most fans have seen all of his games, and definitely have an opinion about the Shaq split and the arrest. It’s easy for someone to say that Kobe has four titles with legit big men (Shaq and Gasol), and in the years he didn’t have an effective center, here’s what happened:
2005: Missed playoffs (Kobe’s missed 14 games, Rudy T was their coach for just 41 games before quitting)
2006: Lost in the first round to the Suns
2007: Lost in the first round to the Suns
[This is the moment where everyone curses Chris Wallace of the Grizz for giving the Lakers Gasol for nothing.]
It’s difficult to say what Jabbar would have done in the 80s, in his advanced age, if not for Magic and Worthy. Olajuwon didn’t have a wingman for his titles; but Jordan took a break. Shaq, for all his stats and power, didn’t win a title until he teammed with Kobe, and then was carried to a 4th by Dwyane Wade.
Still, Kobe is a 4-time champ, now a Finals MVP, has won the scoring crown twice, and a league MVP once.
It’s also highly subjective to compare players over generations. Oscar or West or Kobe? If you look purely at stats, Oscar and West have him beat. That said, Kobe skipped college and only turns 31 this summer, so he probably has 4-5 more years of padding those stats, and he may catch both of them.
For now, we think Kobe is still on the outside looking in, and we’ll take Jabbar, Shaq, Duncan, Robertson and West.
198 Responses to “Is Kobe Bryant Really a Top-10 NBA Player of All-Time?”
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June 15th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
No.
See last week’s discussion.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Top 5 all time @ his position. Top 10 overall. I really think he may have passed Jerry West. Take West out of the other 5 and I think you can put him there.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Should have NO bearing on where he is placed among NBA stars.
And, Duncan > Bird. Bring on the Boston hate.
Kobe > Hakeem and maybe the Big O. West is a toss-up and two of Dr. J’s titles came in the ABA.
Kobe cracks the top 10…just barely.
I think JPQ would take offense to George Mikan being left off this list.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Yes.
See last week’s discussion.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
MJ, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Oscar, Jerry West, Jabbar, Hakeem, Duncan, John Stockton
Kobe: top 15-20
June 15th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I’ve already proven that his finals was better than Jordan’s last three (in two of those Jordan was being defended by Jeff Hornacek Bryon Russel and ) So I’d go looking for another argument if you’re trying to oust him out of the top ten just solely based on his finals.
Keep in mind, Kobe just won a title without another hall of famer, something Magic/Jordan/Bird can’t claim.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
if he didnt have the colorado fiasco everyone would be saying yes. if you take out the fact that he is unlikeable you would have to say yes. i say yes even though i know he is the most likely to be a serial killer than any nba star with the exception of artest
June 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Yes, he is.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Kobe,
Per Game Career:
25.1 poins, 1.5 steals, 4.6 asst, 5.3 boards, 36.4 mins.
Career: 84% FT, 45.5% FG, 36.4 minutes
MVP x1 (2nd place x1),(3rd place x2), Finals MVP x1
1st team all-nba (x7), all-star (x11), led NBA in PPG x2, NBA Champion x4
He has a strong case but it’s close.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Oops. Scratch that. Thought we were talking about Top 10 Players today. In the West.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
All I know is MJ and Wilt are 1-2.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
You might as well disregard anything this guy/gal has to say on this board for the rest of eternity.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
if hes not in the top 10, hes in the top 15, and he could easily win another one next year.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Irish, John Stocton ahead of Kobe? I mean, tough to compare different positions, but Stocton was NEVER the best player in the league when playing, to be top 10 ever, you had to have been that at least a couple years.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
i second this
June 15th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
definitely one of my 10 ten cuts of beef
June 15th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Yes. Ditto Duder and then some. Kobe > Duncan, Olajuwon, Robertson & West.
Unlike a matchup with Jordan, Magic, or Dr. J in their primes that would have been compelling, Kobe would have eaten Robertson or West for lunch even with an average center.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
cursed thinks LeBron had a better supporting cast than Kobe and that Kobes 11-31 game was one of the best of all time. So keep that in mind when you read his comments.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Kobe is #2 behind MJ as Shooting Guards go AND Kobe wasn’t just the BEST 2nd Banana during his Shaq-Kobe days… KOBE was A STR8-Assassin !!! He KILLED the Spurs ROUTINELY in the playoffs, NOT TO MENTION his Playoffs credentials (Rank in scoring list & games played/won by his teams)
And the ONLY Point Guard I’ll put above Kobe is Magic Johnson …
KOBE is a ALL-NBA 1st teamer as well as a 1st Team All-NBA Defense along with being a REGULAR on the ALL-STAR starting team as well
It’s a NO-BRAINER that Kobe is A TOP TEN All-Time Player IMO
June 15th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Justs for kicks here’s Magic’s numbers:
Per Game Career:
19.5 points, 1.9 steals, 11.2 asst, 7.2 boards, 36.7 mins.
Career: 84.8% FT, 52% FG
MVP x 3, (2nd place x2),(3rd place x4), Finals MVP x3
1st team all-nba (x9), all-star (x12), let NBA in steals twice, led NBA in assts 6 times (2nd x6), NBA Champion x5
Incredible that he was in the top two in asst for 12 seasons while almost putting up 20 points a game. Shitty talk show host/TV guy, but a hell of a player.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
MVPs are worthless when comparing players. Steve Nash has two. Dirk has one. Shaq was the most dominate force in the NBA for years and only has one.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
@cursed- im just fucking around with that one
June 15th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
No way is kobe better than duncan…he may be boring but he’s the best pf of all time
June 15th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Wildcat, good stuff. I’d add that Kobe was ALWAYS a better defender than Magic and Bird. So if we’re adding everything, playing both sides as well as Kobe has is a big factor here.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
irish stockton isnt top ten. he is however #1 when it comes to pure pg.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Is it really that easy though Fetch? What about Wilt dominating similar to the way Mikan did. They were just BIGGER than everyone else on the floor. Oscar’s triple double season is more astounding because it was skill related and not just physical prowess.
I gotta go with….
MJ, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Russell, Duncan, Oscar, Kobe and Bird.
/really? no one is going to HAMMER me for tanking Bird?
//my opinion on anyone prior to 1980 is Paolo’s Library/Wikipedia based
June 15th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Where the fuck is Mark Price on that list?
June 15th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
MJ, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Oscar, Jerry West, Jabbar, Hakeem, Duncan, John Stockton
Kobe: top 15-20
I hope when you say MJ you mean Magic Johnson. b/c there is no way NO WAY you can have this list and have John Stockton ahead of Magic.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Kobe is great, but that list has a tough top ten to crack. I will say that it is impressive that he went from losing the NBA finals, to leading the US team to a gold medal, then winning the NBA finals. I seriously hope that placing him in the top 15 isn’t seen as disrespect; I mean look at the company he is among.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Stockton is #1 on the gritty, hard-nosed player list. Followed closely by Hornacek, Scott Skiles, Luke Walton, Kurt Ramsey, and Bill Laimbeer.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Interesting. I’d also add that Jordan was one of today’s athletes playing back in the mid to late 80’s, which was responsible for a number of his ridiculous statistical years. When the league caught up athletically (Kobe was a similar athlete to Jordan, but every team had 6′7 slashers when he came into the league, thus nullifying that advantage), Jordan’s shooting percentage got a whole lot worse.
MJ’s the best ever, but his first 8 years, the league athletically was nowhere near what it is today. And Kobe had to play against that from day one.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
I hope when you say MJ you mean Magic Johnson
nope. Michael Jordan. I dont know how many times i have to say that John Stockton on that list was a fucking joke
June 15th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Oh and…
Bring it. Duncan is better than Bird. I’ll maintain that. Best PF of all time and he didn’t play with 19 hall of famers. Just Robinson. Parker and Manu were young when they started to play with TD. He’s clearly made their games better.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Lay off the pipe dude.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Not top 10 but closer.
Cursed agreed that it is worthless to bring up a sss finals stats arguement, considering O town had best D in league this year, but you Jordan comp is way off. It does not justify the useless of looking at 5 games of Kobe’s this year by look at 5 games of Jordan in 98 (whose team was really weak on scoring options btw).
June 15th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Sorry to say, but Russell was overrated. Switch him and Wilt on their respective teams, and does Russell win any championships without playing with 15 other HOFers? I say no.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Stockton is #1 on the gritty, hard-nosed player list. Followed closely by Hornacek, Scott Skiles, Luke Walton, Kurt Ramsey, and Bill Laimbeer
Ramsey? at least you know how to spell Gortat
June 15th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Duder the word you’re looking for is “scrappy”
June 15th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
wasnt bird more of a SF ?
June 15th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Can some PEOPLE not read and UNDERSTAND lower-case letters?!? WHY do WE have to randomly CAPITALIZE words on this BOARD?
June 15th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Michael Jeffery Jordan. That is all.
/but in Kobes defense his wife is killing Juanita
June 15th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
@clown… EXACTLY !!!!!
June 15th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Bill Russell looks like Morgan Freeman in The Dark Knight
June 15th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Yeah but TBL brought it up as to discredit Kobe’s body of work, when in reality, Kobe’s performance was better than any of MJ’s last three. And MJ was playing with Pippen in his prime, Kukoc in his prime..and one of the best three point shooters in NBA history (although no low post options that were anywhere near Pau).
June 15th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Kobe is top 10-15, but not Top 10. May be at the end of his career, but not now.
Save yourselves time. You did this all last week. Just re-read it. Nothing’s changed. I think everybody was giving Kobe the ring this year when they wrote their answers last time.
http://thebiglead.com/?p=14848
June 15th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Nice one Maggs
June 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Russell, Duncan, Oscar, Kobe and Bird.
/fixed…had two Russells
//agree with Clown that Russell is a little overrated. Still good though.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Cursed, Shit like this is why Cleveland will never win shit. You make Joey Buss look like Martin Luther King JR.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
/fixed
June 15th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Russell, Bird, Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Oscar, Duncan, Kobe, Kareem, Shaq
/Karl and Moses Malone kind of overlooked, too.
/Did Jerry West win a title before Wilt arrived? Can’t remember
June 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Nice one to you on Friday. Great series.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Gortat would be top 5 in natural athletic ability. Hed make the hard-nosed list if he wasnt foreign.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
This statement is stupid.
Sure, Magic/Jordan/Bird all played and won with HOFers on their teams. They also beat teams that had multiple HOFers. In LAs 3-peat, they beat the Pacers, 76ers, Nets. Combined those teams have 3 HOF, tops (Miller, Iverson, Kidd).
June 15th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Absolutely, especially after another 2-3 years of great and 4-5 years of good. Kobe > DrJ, Hakeem, West, probably Oscar.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Bird:
Per Game Career:
24.3 points, 1.7 steals, 6.3 asst, .8 blocks, 10.0 boards, 38.4 minutes per
Career: 88.6% FT, 49.6 FG%
MVP x2 (2nd place x4), (3rd places x1), Finals MVP x2, 12x all-star, Rookie of the Year, 1st team all-nba (x9), 2nd team all-nba defense x2, x3 NBA Champion
Duncan:
Per Game Career:
21.4 points, .08 steals, 2.4 blocks, 11.7 boards, 3.2 ast, 36.9 mins
Career: 68.5% FT, 50.7% FG
MVP x2, (2nd place x2), (3rd place x1), Finals MVP x3, 11x All-Star, Rookie of the Year, 1st team all-nba x9, 1st team all-NBA defense x8, 2nd team all-NBA defense x4,
June 15th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Hey remember when Kobe and Shaq lost to the Pistons?
June 15th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Yea it was. I never ever want to see a Red Wings vs. Pens finals again, it makes me too nervous. That being said, I’m sure we’ll see it next year again.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Kurt Ramsey had a sick lay-up in the ‘87 Playoffs.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
The sad thing is, if Shaq and Kobe didn’t fall apart. They probably could’ve doubled their title count as their roles reversed. Kobe would’ve become the alphadog and Shaq would transition into the sidekick role.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
His Title was after Wilt arrived.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
@Crook
Jerry West & Elgin Baylor (The BEST SF ever IMO…) went to 9 Straight NBA Finals together then Elgin retired and Jerry West won a ring with Wilt
June 15th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Same thing could be said about MJs Bulls.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
MJ, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird top 5 yes…
Duncan (how the hell do you forget him?), Shaq, Kobe, Oscar, KAreem.
I take out West cause he kept losing till he was with Elgin and Wilt (I believe).
As someone on SI said, Kobe’s career path resembles Magic’s to some extent.
During his first 3, MAgic was option 1B to KAreem. By his last 2 rings, MAgic was the main man, winning MVPs.
Kobe is an undeniable talent, if he’s not top 10, then he is 11th.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Can you imagine any of the Duncan, West, Dr. J, Oscar, or anybody else remotely close to this conversation shutting it down and deferring to his teammates on purpose, to the detriment of the team, just to prove a point about being top dog? Absolutely not.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
NOOOOOOO!!!! C’mon Fetch! Give my Blackhawks a chance!
@wildcat – the stats look pretty similar. I just think Duncan is a better player. Like everyone says, switch Bird and Duncan on their respective teams. Could Bird lead Parker and Manu to a title? Probably. Could Duncan win with those 80s Celtic teams? Probably like 3 more than they did.
Duncan 11 – Bird 6…..my one-on-one street ball prediction.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Might be stupid to you, but it’s still as accurate as can be. Kobe won a title without another hall of famer. Why does he not get credit for that? Jordan might have been playing against Stocton and Malone, but other than them, what with them was one of the worst supporting casts (of course, the Sixers takes the cake with their team around Iverson).
Heck, even the Sonics weren’t anything special outside of Kemp and Payton. The Lakers team Jordan beat was washed up, with an injured Magic and an eroding Worthy.
Let’s not act like Jordan played against the murderers row of competition in the finals.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
I don’t think you actually watched game 7 of the 2006 playoffs, and just based it on what others said/what the media said.
The only time Kobe’s quit/shut it down on purpose was sometime in the 2002 or 2003 season, and it was against the Kings, where he refused to score after something Shaq said about him, or something to that extent.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Bird>Duncan.
I think Duncan is the best PF of all time and certainly was the cornerstone of an unlikely dynasty in San Antonio. However, you could not put the ball in his hands at then end of the game because he did not possess the ability to hit the game winning shot or to be clutch from the free throw line. Both attributes that Bird had.
In fact I think Wilt Chamberlain is probably the most dominant athlete in team sports but his inability to shoot free throws hurts his legacy and most likely was the reason he did not have more championships.
June 15th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Heck, even the Sonics weren’t anything special outside of Kemp and Payton
Frank Brickowski dominated
June 15th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Can we get a thread where there aren’t so many options. I think a Phil vs. Red thread would be real interesting…
June 15th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
um cursed…detlef schrempf wasnt exactly a scrub
June 15th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Might be stupid to you, but it’s still as accurate as can be. Kobe won a title without another hall of famer
Wasn’t Gasol just elected to the HOF earlier this morning on this site?
or was in Rodman, Wallace, Billups? I can’t keep up. They’re letting so many guys in nowadays
June 15th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
WOw. Just Wow. Cursed you must huff the strongest paint out.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Thats funny.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
and cursed you are forgetting about who the bulls beat to get to the finals each year. alot of those teams were fucking stacked
June 15th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
To add, so what?
Even if he did (he didn’t, except that example against the Kings), so what? How does that take away from his accomplishments? Numerous all-nba selections, regular season mvp, scoring titles, all-star mvps, defensive team selections, 81 points, 62 in 3 quarters, 61 at msg, 4 straight 50+ games…..and you choose to remember somehting he did when he was trying to establish his importance on the team?
I find it funny that all these people who have never seen West, Oscar, Wilt or Russell play trying to play it up like they actually have.
Also, Dr.J should not even be in this convo.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Wasn’t Gasol just elected to the HOF earlier this morning on this site?
or was in Rodman, Wallace, Billups? I can’t keep up. They’re letting so many guys in nowadays
that was funny jpq. very nice
June 15th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Perhaps you missed his GW 3-pointer vs. Phoenix a year ago. He also had a game-winner vs. the Lakers in the playoffs early in his career. I’m sure there are more examples.
And didn’t Duncan’s last 2 Championships come w/o playing alongside a HOFer?
June 15th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Who was it again who thought Pau and his career 18 and 8 and no playoff series wins w/o Kobe was a hall of famer? Raise your hand duder!
June 15th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I put MJ #1 overall because 1. he won with not-so-stacked teams, 2. he won 6 times 3. he had amazing stats and 4. we actually saw him play.
Wilt played in a time when the league was not as big nor atheltic as he was at the time.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Is Phil Jackson a Hall of Famer?
June 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Bird:
Per Game Career:
24.3 points, 1.7 steals, 6.3 asst, .8 blocks, 10.0 boards, 38.4 minutes per
Career: 88.6% FT, 49.6 FG%
June 15th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
the athleticism of the players in the past 15 years makes comparisons to pre-90s players impossible. medicore players today would give stars of 70s, 80s problems, and forget the 60s and 50s. conclusion: this is a sports-dream wankathon
//somebody say “This is what sports-blogging is all about”
June 15th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Duncan is so underrated its ridiculous. He literally owned half of this decade with different rosters..put him over West (no titles pre-Chamberlain) and Oscar anyday.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
I remember that Lakers-Bulls series vividly…
Magic skills were the one that was eroding (NOT Worthy!!!)
Pippen was all over Magic like a cheap suit whereas Worthy was destroying Pippen before he succumb to his injuries and couldn’t play anymore
And Wilt free-throw shooting had nothing to do with him not winning more rings … BUT playing against a STACKED Boston squad every damn year did to the point where Wilt finally beat the Celtics when he was a part of ONE of the greatest teams ever in that Philly team
June 15th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
wow I fucked that up…
June 15th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
You’re right about that. I was referring more towards the Bird/Magic lineups in the 80’s. Although Jordan did have to get through Detriot’s Bad Boys in the beginning of his run.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Kobe isn’t a good enough shooter, as crazy as that sounds. And his lack of rebounds and assists gives him a NO, imo.
Is Kobe better than Clyde Drexler better than Kobe? He doesn’t have the titles or points, but he has the the boards, assists, and fg%. And you could argue that Clyde was a more efficient player since Kobe takes more shots to get his points.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Sorry I forgot to add my qualifiers from another thread. Tony Parker will go down as a HOF in my estimation. Shooting 50% as a guard as many years as he has, while averaging above 20, with three rings… I think he’s in.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Gasols career is over. 11-31 = best of all time. Varejao > Odom. Z > Gasol. Mike Brown > Phil Jackson.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Magic-Worthy
Drexler-Duckworth (RIP)
Barkley-Johnson
Payton-Kemp-Schrempf
Stockton-Malone-Hornacek
June 15th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Wow, way to be original. Have you said anything in these Finals other than harping on “11-31″?
June 15th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Nick P, don’t just name the top two everytime. Teams that get to the Finals are very good teams, obviously. They had good seasons. But go beyond that. That Utah team was garbage and would not have gotten out of the west in the last 6 years. No way.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Mark Price:
Per Game Career:
15.2 points, .1 block, 1.2 steals, 6.7 asst, 2.6 boards
Career: 90.4% FT, 47.2% FG
4x All-Star, 1st team all-NBA (x1), 3rd team all-NBA (x3), best MVP placement -7th (1991-92), led NBA in FT pct x4
June 15th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Sorry Cursed, MJ faced intense competition, especially in the last 3-peat. That UTah team was way more stacked than the Bulls.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
I greatly discount basketball accomplishments of the 50’s and 60’s. Those “great players” were playing against grocery store workers who played basketball part time.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
I find it funny that all these people who have never seen West, Oscar, Wilt or Russell play trying to play it up like they actually have.
welcome to my world at TBL
Also, Dr.J should not even be in this convo.
agree 100%. Dr J is Vince Carter w/ a better nickname
June 15th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Yes, I said the Lakers were the deepest team in the league and they would win in 5. How did that turn out karma?
June 15th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Give him some credit for not referencing Kobe’s assists and rebounds. imagine what Duder would have said in 97 when Jordan averaged a whopping 2.3 assists per game in the finals.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
whoa whoa hole the phone! duckworth died?
June 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
That’s tough. I love Tony Parker, but a guard who has only averaged 20ppg once and never more than 7apg is going to get slighted.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
I dont take any top player seriously unless its 80’s plus….Russell I’ll give credit for winning as much as he did, but there’s a HUGE difference in the level of compeititon.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
That’s funny.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Lakers were not the deepest team Duder. Three players got substantial minutes off the bench during the finals. One of them is Luke Walton. Boy, talk about depth.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Luke Walton is extremely hard-nosed and scrappy. Kobe should be honored to play with him.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
especially in the last 3-peat. That UTah team was way more stacked than the Bulls
Adam Keefe was a beast
June 15th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Kevin Duckworth
Per Game Career:
11.8 points, .5 blocks, .5 steals, .9 asst, 5.8 boards
Career: 73.6% FT, 46.8% FG
All-Star x2, Most Improved 1987-88, Heart Failure x1
June 15th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Yeah, I’m still thinking about it. He is only 27 and has a Finals MVP. The shooting 50% is huge, look at Isiah’s shooting percentages, not even close.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
I’ll add that Tony Parker’s fate will be decided post-Duncan.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
NickP – How could you leave out Thunder Dan! I’ve been to his restaurant!
/it sucked worse than waking up with Taco Bell in your stomach.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
oh my god…that’s, literally, the funniest thing i’ve ever read.
nobody on that team is worth a shit without duncan.
game, set, match, blouses.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
I agree with this. If you’re arguing for or against Kobe in the top 10, you better be coming with a defensive argument, because his offense pales in comparison to the other guys. Kobe wasted too many possession in his career. Very inefficient compared to other All-Timers.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
I greatly discount basketball accomplishments of the 50’s and 60’s. Those “great players†were playing against grocery store workers who played basketball part time
dont take any top player seriously unless its 80’s plus….Russell I’ll give credit for winning as much as he did, but there’s a HUGE difference in the level of compeititon.
I can’t wait to see this site in 15 years and everybody will be talking about how LeBron and Kobe are overrated because they’re not as athletic as the athletes of 2025.
/the ignorance on here is getting higher every day
//looking forward to scintillating analysis by TBL’s new teenage interns
June 15th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Isn’t this all relative? Sure the league isn’t what it is today, but it works both ways. The players then had to deal with a lot more issues off the court, and I’m not just talking about racism.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
yea, playing with nasty cocaine addictions is a real bitch. today’s players don’t have to worry about that tho.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
looking forward to scintillating analysis by TBL’s new teenage interns
on fire today JPQ
June 15th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
I just want to see TBL’s barely legal hot teen porn in his new production company created of course undercover …Captain Duffy suspiciously took a trip to Italy this week and is watching the game no doubt drinking heavily in a bar tonight …and the exploits of Captain Hernia are unknown but I have to think he has something to do with the undercover intern search mission.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Isn’t this all relative? Sure the league isn’t what it is today, but it works both ways. The players then had to deal with a lot more issues off the court, and I’m not just talking about racism.
St. Bear:
don’t bother wasting your time. I have, to no avail. If you’ve never even glimpsed an iota of something, you can’t even begin to understand it.
Obama remarked just the other day that it would have been a lot easier to deal with Hitler and Hirohito than the Taliban, because Hitler couldn’t jump into a truck and Hirohito was so short he couldn’t jump out of a pool
June 15th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
that’s crazy, bear. off-court issues today include a media cyclone, way more money than young people can handle, posses because of the money, time-crunches because of endorsements. i realize all that is better than a 50K/yr job, but you can;t argue that all of it has an effect that those set-shooters didn;t have to deal with
June 15th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Stay on the road there Paolo…
June 15th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I can’t wait to see this site in 15 years and everybody will be talking about how LeBron and Kobe are overrated because they’re not as athletic as the athletes of 2025.
jpq, i don’t think so–i can;t imagine athleticism getting better. maybe deeper, as in more guys like a DHo or a A. Stoudamire or the freakiest, LeBron. so, maybe more guys this athletic but no way more athletic
June 15th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
BTW, can we all agree that Iverson is the most overrated player of our generation (whatever that means)? Fun to watch and has had a huge cultural impact on the NBA, sports, and America; but a pretty good player that shot way too much.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
otter. most amazing thins about AI is his physical toughness. 160 pounds and fearless.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
I agree, vezina, but does that make Muggsy Bogues great? He was 135 pounds.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
The answer: no. Becuase he’s a big bad meanie who ruined TBL’s favorite squadron
June 15th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
never said he was great, just said that was an amazing part of his career. muggsy was only that? dude has/had some muscles, making him look heavier even for 5-what-3?
June 15th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
I’m not saying one generation is better than another. It’s all relative, and it’s fun to make lists and say this guy over that guy.
It’s easy to say that anybody now would dominate in an earlier generation, but what if those players had access to modern training techniques, medical knowledge, and coaching practices? How would Kobe do traveling the country in the ’60s if he was suspected of raping a white girl? How would LeBron do under older rule interpretations if couldn’t just bull head first into the lane and get bailed out with a foul call?
I guess my point is that I hate when people talk in absolutes. It takes away all the fun in these discussions, which is centered around discussing the gray area in sports.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Kobe has a higher career PER than Bird, West, and Robertson, for those who care about such metrics.
June 15th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Yes^ When people talk about him I wonder if they realize that in 01-02 he scored 31 ppg but shot only 39.8%. That is fucking hard to do, you have to take so many shots. He could carry his team at times, like the title run, but overall he hurt it more than helped. And yet he’s still amazing, because of his toughness coupled with lack of size, and his endurance. He played over 42 mpg for seven straight years. Dude basically never came out.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
I did make the defensive argument. Much better than Bird and Johnson. As for wasting possessions, you’re right, Jordan was a trainwreck in those last three finals. And the guy never passed!
June 15th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I guess my point is that I hate when people talk in absolutes. It takes away all the fun in these discussions, which is centered around discussing the gray area in sports.
I get what you;re saying–see my first post, #83. this type of discussion is way better in person, because of all the typing you have to do about grey-area topics. too much typing discourages long arguments/discussions, making points, etc. i like good arguments, just not typing them
June 15th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Spence, did Parker shit on some American golf course or something? Parker is a stud, and like I said, is only 27, and has a finals MVP. He’s a point guard who’s career fg% is around 50%. He’s got three rings. You don’t think he can get in?
June 15th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
StBear, I generally use somewhere around 1970 as the cutoff from when numbers/records get a little fuzzy before that. I figure around 1970 all sports had full time athletes. Training (and roids) became a normal part of being an athlete around then. Guys from the 70’s could at least hold their own athletically with todays athletes, I’m not sure you could say the same about the 60’s (definitely not the 50’s).
Finally, if you didnt wear facemasks it doesnt count (so shove those 50 National Titles up your ass ND).
June 15th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
The problem, cursed, is that Jordan did shoot worse when his athleticism left him. Kobe’s shot similarly his entire career, and his athleticism is just NOW leaving him. So going forward, Kobe is going to have to rely even more on his jumper because he won’t be able to get to the rim as easily (not that he cares to go anyway).
June 15th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Parker is a good player, stud, no. He’s undersized so he struggles defending everyone. That FG% is nice until you consider he shoots about 20% outside of 3 feet.
And he’s f’in french man, cant forget that.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
I just finished reading through all the comments; there were some really good points. I have Kobe at 10, I think Dr. J is not on the list, Duncan definitely is, but if Kobe wins more he can pass Duncan, but I have no idea where I would put Duncan on the list. And obviously PER is only one measurement, but I think it’s definitely worth something.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Kobe has a higher career PER than Bird, West, and Robertson, for those who care about such metrics.
That’s an excellent reason to quit using PER.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Nick P, I’ve attempted to explain some of this. (and like I’ve said, Jordan’s the best player, I’m just providing some much needed context).
Kobe would have shot a much higher percentage in those years that Jordan shot 50-55%. The reason his shooting went down, was b/c the athleticism of the league caught up to him. Kobe was never afforded that distinct advantage from day one b/c of the makeup of the league when he came in.
The only 6′7 guys in the league were stiffs when Jordan played. Look at the guys guarding him in the late 80’s when he was killing guys off the dribble. Now every team has a player as athletic as Kobe Bryant, and maybe even 2 or 3.
No team had a player remotely as athletic as Jordan until about 1994. That’s a huge advantage and contributed greatly to his high shooting percentages. Put Kobe back in the late 80’s and he would have smoked the guys trying to guard him just the same, and for a long period of time.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
So we love PER when LeBron is referenced favorably, but we hate it when Kobe is referenced favorably. That sounds fishy to me Mr. Hollinger!
June 15th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
So we love PER when LeBron is referenced favorably, but we hate it when Kobe is referenced favorably. That sounds fishy to me Mr. Hollinger!
I always hate PER, and I am not a Lebron guy or a Kobe guy. I’m just a guy.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Cursed this is entirely a fallacious argument. You’re picking and choosing whatever you like, while ignoring things like how the rules changes allow Kobe greater freedom. MJ may have been more athletic than his peers, but they were allowed to play much more aggressively than defenders today. (ever hear of the Jordan Rules?) I thin you need to compare them to their peers first, and clearly Jordan was a better/more efficient scorer than anyone else at his time, while Kobe is not.
Really? That’s a pretty bold statement. I can think of Payton, for one example. Anyway, very few teams are throwing 6′7″ guys at Kobe. Neither Lee nor Pietrus are that big. And the guy that probably guards him best, Battier, is not very athletic at all.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
That type of impartiality is not welcome here.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I’ve tried to refute this before. Kobe isn’t a good shooter relative to his own peers, compared to Jordan. That’s as apples-to-apples as it gets. How can you say he’s a great shooter, if he doesn’t even stand out among his own players.
Re: PER debate. 1) Kobe hasn’t had his decline years yet. Up through age 31, Bird destroyed (destroyed!) Kobe. From age 32 on, Bird’s play (and PER) trailed way off.
2) I question the validity of a metric like PER for players who played pre-3 point shot era.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
PER is simply a rolled up bundle of already measured stats. Many of the things that it doesn’t measure or indicate are vital to basketball, and are hard to measure. So it’s just like reciting all the guys stats, only faster.
Here’s my opinion of Kobe – really good at basketball, super good even. Takes a lot of shots.
Here’s my opinion of Lebron – Young, powerful, not as refined as he needs to be, absolutely bursting with greatness.
Plus, you’re way off base saying nobody could dribble in 1990 except michael jordan. If Kobe played in 1990, people would mug him, just like they did MJ. He’d still be super good, though, because he’s super good at basketball.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
I thin you need to compare them to their peers first, and clearly Jordan was a better/more efficient scorer than anyone else at his time, while Kobe is not.
i think g-man brought his big-boy game today. that was just one of three eggsellent points in that post, and that’s saying something after 140 posts
June 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Pietrus is 6′6, he’s athletic. As far as Payton he was 6′4. And that’s what I’m getting at. The first half of Jordan’s career (the “stats” years), he was defended by guys that either had some athleticism and no heights or height and no athleticism. Now there are much more versatile guys on every roster who have a little of both (IMO)
I don’t get to decide what I want to argue and how I want to defend it? You can disagree with my defense of the argument, but that alone doesn’t by defintion make it “fallacious.”
June 15th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
But that includes Kobe’s four dog-shit out of high school years, while Bird and others don’t have that. Kobe came in the league at at 17…those years really brought it stats down bigtime.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
And for those talking about how much more physical the Jordan years were..maybe with post players. But not with Kobe and LeBron. Both guys were double handchecked the entire playoffs. You honestly think Battier and Pietrus were doing anything less than what was being done against Jordan (nevermind the fact that you can zone now..thus making it tougher for perimeter players today).
June 15th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Bird’s career was 13 seasons long. Kobe just finished his 13th season.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I would agree for the most part. Although Kobe was a better three-point shooter, free throw shooter and passer. MJ was better at beating people off the dribble and finishing inside. Kobe has the better pull up game (the best in the history of the game), while Jordan had the much better fall away and turnaround.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Sorry, meant three years.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Yeah, one thing a lot of people ignore is that Kobe was on and off the bench till about 2000. I think Kobe’s career took off with PJ at the helms, because he was really put on a leash by Harris and Rambis.
Kobe’s 2002-2003 season was one of the finest displays of basketball I’ve ever watched. Dude straight BALLED that year, and it was with Shaq too. I think he averaged like 30 ppg while Shaq had 28 or so. Good times, too bad they lost to the Spurs.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
well, this thread and the ensuing emails have been interesting.
that’ll be all for kobe this summer.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Is this post TBL’s kneejerk reaction to a slow news day? I would agree that championships and players of the 50’s and 60’s are hugely overrated, mainly due to the fact that a majority of older sports media people grew up watching these guys and want to relive their weed smoking days of fornication and hoops. But leaving the greatest all around player of the last ten years off a top ten list of a game that’s barely a century old is a little re-dick-u-less. Chamberlain and Russell are way overrated and wouldn’t stand much of a chance to Shaq and Hakim. And to leave Luke Ridnour off the list is a shamockery of justice.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Technology (stats revolution), the amount of money and time spent into scouting, the fact that every team pretty much knows the other teams plays, and the advancement in medicine make this era in basketball superior to the 50’s and 60’s. IT’s one thing to be dominating when most players are half your size and have half your skillset (think of it like Shaq dominating high school), it’s another to dominate when people a) know what you’re going to run b) there is an extreme amount of media scrunity on your every move c) the other atheletes around you are as atheltic, if not more atheletic than you are.
I have respect for the old timers, but a lot of thier stature is based on myth, since none of us have ever seen them play. Bill’s 11 rings, Chamberlain’s 50 ppg average, OScar’s triple double…you REALLY have to take into context who they played and what the level of competition was.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
kobe is top 12.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
TBL should stand for Trifling Basketball Loon if you think Kobe isn’t top ten. A more engaging argument is top 5. Russell and Chambermaid spent more time chasing white girls than practicing. Is Barry Bonds a top 5 home run hitter of all time? Of course he is, you cynical contrarian. But you know by asking questions like these, you will get Kobe haters or Bonds haters, etc. Quit playing devil’s advocate. We already know the answer. TBL should stand for Tired Blogging Lines. Either that or Turkey Baloni Loser! Yer full of it!
June 15th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
speak for yourself, I was courtside when Wilt scored 100!!
/jpq’d
June 15th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
And I agree, the media (mostly old white dudes who grew up in the 60’s) had a great influence in inflating the value of some of these guys. We’re never presented with thier failures, because we dont know thier failures. I mean, seriously, how many of you actually know of Jerry West’s accomplishments off the top of your head?? You know he’s clutch, and you’ve seen that shot of him shooting from half court, and that’s likely it. How much do you know about Robertson other than the fact that you’ve READ somewhere that he averaged a triple double? What do you know about Russel’s career other than 11 rings? Can you even name his teammates other than say, KC Jones and Bob Cousy??
In hindsight, everything or everyone looks more inflated then they’re worth. It happened with MAgic and Bird (nobody mentions that Magic lost in the Finals twice, while Kobe’s Finals losses are well documented), it happened with Jordan (nobody mentions punching out teammates, adultery, being selfish, etc), and it will happen with Kobe and Lebron.
History does that to you.
June 15th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
um, mr. heezy, if i may, the TV guys are the ones that brought this up. since TBL is a site that monitors sports media, it’s a legit post. not that TBL needs me defending it/him
June 15th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
I wouldn’t put Kobe top 5 though.
Not counting 50’s/60’s/70’s players…
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Duncan/Shaq
June 15th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Oh snap.
and, weezyheezy- wtf?
June 15th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
ugh, sorry folks, but i’m already overloaded on crosstown classic crap around here and it doesn;t start til tomorrow. i know, wrong place, but i’m already here
June 15th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
You’re not serious, are you? Battier, Artest, Pietrus, ‘Melo, Dhantay Jones, Ronnie Brewer, are all over 6′6″.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
top five last 30 years:
Bird
Magic
Jordan
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe would be number six, slightly ahead of Isaiah and Shaq.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Actually, come to think about it…Shaq was purely dominant for 2 seasons (00, 01)…Kobe’s stats have been otherwordly since about 2002. They have the same number of championships and MVPs. Insert Kobe in a tie with Duncan for 5th.
I still cant believe VC didn’t pan out the way he was supposed to.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
My top 5(last 30 years) might be the best starting five of all time.
center-Hakeem
pf-Duncan
sf-Bird
sg-Jordan
pg-Magic
I can’t think of a top five beating them.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
karma, Kareem was better in the 70’s than he was in the 80’s. Much better.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
See, this is my problem with calling Kobe top-10. Having the best pull-up game ever, which he does, is not as good as having the best 3-point shooting, or the best post moves, or the best ability to get to the basket. It is simply not an efficient way to score points. Therefore, he misses a lot of shots.
Do you mean “at least 6′6″”? I was referring to cursed’s assertion that every team has that sort of guy to throw at him, night in and night out. Certainly playoff teams have pretty damn good defenders. (And if Dahntay Jones is 6-6 then I’m teh king of Jordan.) Plus Battier is slow, which I addressed in my previous post.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
c – lebron
pf – lebron
sf – lebron
sg – lebron
pg – lebron
FTW!!!
June 15th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Mak, I have a lineup that would give a good try at ‘beating’ them:
Pf) Kermit Washington
SG) Ron Artest
Utility) Mike Jordan
June 15th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
id be even more simplistic…having the best “pull-up game” or whatever means jack shit. buckets are buckets are buckets are buckets…who cares how you get them or in what fashion, all that matters is that you get them.
phil mickelson is a better tee-to-green than tiger woods in every facet of golf and is only a little worse as a putter…but tiger’s better at scoring. it’s not about all the different things you can do, it’s about how you put it together, and there’s no argument at all that can convince me that kobe is anywhere near MJ’s level. the fact it’s being discussed is borderline absurd.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
c-shaq
pf- karl malone
sf-lebron(he would murder bird)
sg-mj
pg-john stockton
June 15th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
+1 vez
-23 spence. he’ll make this list soon enough.
/paolo’d
June 15th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
you can’t have MJ vs. MJ, that’s cheating. Magic would kill Stockton, and Duncan would abuse the black redneck.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
where’s Jay V? he’d tell you that Paolo is not the be-all-end-all for giving out pluses
June 15th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
ok change mj to kobe but either way i can promise you that my team would dismantle your team
June 15th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
I am coming for you, sir.
No, sir, it is I who am coming for you.
—-excerpt from an SI article in the 90s about the emergence of not only basketball in Africa, but trash-talking
Mak and MReJer, your imaginary lineups would have to smack it like that
June 15th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
not if the officals call charging. Lebron would foul out.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
mak, we would be playing by todays rules so you know lebron would always get the benefit of the doubt
June 15th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Today’s rules? Karl Malone would get a flagrant 2 for elbows early in the first qtr.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
first rebound, even.
/today’s officials suck.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
When Kobe wins seven titles, is this debate over?
June 15th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
mostly, it’s an age thing that kept him off my top 10.
even if he doesn’t win another title, a couple more successful postseasons should do the trick.
June 15th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
No one’s trying to make that argument. The argument is whether Kobe’s a top-10 player, not how he compares to Jordan. Excellent strawman though.
June 15th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
I am coming for you, sir.
No, sir, it is I who am coming for you.
—-excerpt from an SI article in the 90s about the emergence of not only basketball in Africa, but trash-talking
you sure that’s not from Olbermann’s last “Special Comment”??
June 15th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Kobe’s LEGACY as the #2 Shooting Guard …
Behind only HIS AIRNESS – Michael Jordan
Perennial-n-Reigning ALL-NBA First Team (7 – 11 appearances)
Perennial-n-Reigning ALL-NBA 1st Team Defense (7 – 9 appearances)
Perennial-n-Reigning ALL-STAR Starter for Western Conference (11)
4 NBA championship rings (6 NBA Finals Appearances)
1 Regular season MVP trophy
1 Finals MVP Trophy
3 All-Star MVP Trophy(s)
—–
Foot-Note worthy Accomplishments:
Finals AVG of: 30 pts 5 assists 5 rebs –
Only Michael Jordan has done this
And HIS AIRNESS did it 3 TIMES during his first Championship-Run !!!
Single Game High of 81 points – 2nd only to Wilt’s 100 pt game
Youngest ALL-STAR Starter in NBA History at 19 years of age
2 NBA Scoring titles
—–
Say What, Really Now …
Jerry West matches Kobe in the first 3 categories BUT THE …
1 Ring w/ Wilt (10 Finals Appearances)
1 Finals MVP (In A LOSS…)
DOES Absolutely nothing towards why he should surpass Kobe
June 15th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
i am not sure, only because i don’t watch Olbermann. tell me why that could be funny. understand i have four kids in my house, three of them 3 and under, so me no watch much TV before 930 at night, central
June 15th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
As far as everyone obsessing about field goal percentages and efficiency. Jordan’s field goal percentage (let’s say we got with 50% for the duration of his prime)…and let’s give Kobe 46% during his prime, equates to roughly 1.5 more makes per game for MJ over Kobe (per 23 shots a game). That’s not the chasm that people want to make it.
Again, Jordan is the best ever, but don’t be offended when Kobe is brought up in arguments.
June 15th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
i am not sure, only because i don’t watch Olbermann. tell me why that could be funny.
he has this habit of saying “Sir” for extra emphasis when he would trash Bush. (ie “Please resign, Sir”, “Have you no decency, Sir”). That’s all.
I remember when my two kids were small. Not a lot of time to do much in my house either-lol
June 15th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
thanks jpq–those agenda-fests on cable are so frustrating, no matter which way you lean. i do try to encourage my wife’s crush on rachel maddow though
June 15th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Go away Howard.
June 15th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
thanks jpq-those agenda-fests on cable are so frustrating, no matter which way you lean. i do try to encourage my wife’s crush on rachel maddow though
Maddow is a well-known avowed lesbian, so your wife might have a chance w/ “Ralph”-lol
June 15th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Maddow is a well-known avowed lesbian, so your wife might have a chance w/ “Ralphâ€-lol
Only under strict supervision, of course
June 15th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
“No team had a player remotely as athletic as Jordan until about 1994.”
Not “remotely” as athletic, eh? Not Drexler? Not Wilkins?
June 15th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
I screwed that up. I was over-generalizing. I meant that the league just didn’t have many guys with his height and quickness to guard him in those days, while there are about 50 guys in the league that now have Kobe’s height and quickness.
June 15th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
He’s the Logo. Hard to top that…
June 16th, 2009 at 12:06 am
IMO you can’t really compare a guard against a big man – they’re just so fundamentally different. It’s like comparing Jerry Rice to Jim Brown.