Tunnel Vision: Will New York’s Teixeira Love Threaten Joe Mauer’s MVP Season?
Baseball, Media Gossip/Musings August 17th. 2009, 4:30pm
Nothing riles baseball minds more than an MVP debate, and the New York Times’ Tyler Kepner let the dogs out with this tweet about Mark Teixeira from Saturday’s wee hours.
“By the way, this is probably obvious by now, but Teixeira’s the AL MVP. No question, as Joe Torre would say.”
The AL MVP choice is obvious, but for Joe Mauer.
Mauer is hitting .377/.444./.626 compared to Teixeira’s .285/.382/.557. He leads the AL in batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage, and he is doing so as a catcher. Teixeira plays a less valuable position and does not come with in .062 of Mauer in those three significant categories. Mauer has been demonstrably better.
Rob Neyer agrees. “The argument for Teixeira is an argument for doing it the way it’s always been done. Teixeira is just another big RBI guy on a team with a great record. If he were a Twin and Mauer were a Yankee, Teixeira would hardly be an afterthought.”
As does Joe Posnanski. “There is not a single thing that Mark Teixeira has done as well as Joe Mauer this year. Not one thing.”
I would also fail as a Red Sox fan if I did not point out that Yukon Cornelius, also beats out Teixeira in BA (.311), OBP (.424) and SLG (.564). Mauer’s 186 adjusted OPS+ beats everyone in the AL by 34 points. It crushes Youkilis’ 149 OPS+ and Teixeira’s 143.
The Yankee retort seems to be “he’s the best player for the best team.” That may be true. However, if Harvard is the best college in the country, you cannot logically conclude that the smartest graduate from Harvard is the smartest graduate in the country.
Kepner is no dummy, but he’s displaying the inevitable tunnel vision of a baseball beat writer. The same insularity that led two Detroit dingbats to vote for Magglio Ordonez over A-Rod in 2007. He sees all the little things Teixeira does that make him great, but he does not have the same insight into Joe Mauer.
Mark Teixeira is having a typically great Mark Teixeira season under a spotlight. Joe Mauer is having one of the best seasons anyone has had, ever, as a catcher. If the thundering drums of the New York-based media drown Mauer out, it would be a travesty.
86 Responses to “Tunnel Vision: Will New York’s Teixeira Love Threaten Joe Mauer’s MVP Season?”
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August 17th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
not really. it’d be justice for selig not contracting the twins when he had a chance.
how is that justice? i really don’t know, but fuck the twins.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
depends on how you define the term “mvp.”
for example, in 1987 how could andre dawson be an mvp? you mean the cubs couldn’t have finished in last place without him?
there really should be two awards:
most valuable player.
player of the year.
besides, mauer will be awarded the silver slugger. no shame in that.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Excellent analogy Duffy.
I also liked this from Jonah Keri’s blog:
August 17th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Which is why we have the Hank Aaron Award. The MVP has always (except for A-Rod’s statistical anomaly in Texas) been for a player on a team that at least makes the playoffs.
Why are you arguing to change the voting now? Give the Aaron to Mauer and the MVP to Teixeira.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
I’m one of the biggest Yankee homers on this site, but I lean to Mauer with this.
You have a catcher hitting .378. Who gives a shit if he’s on a bad team? He’s not the one pitching and hitting in the other eight slots. Go to Nomaas.org, a popular Yankee site which Cashman himself has admitted to reading on the reg, and they give you reasons, in full details, why Mauer deserves the nod.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
The MVP is the most valuable baseball player, which by definition is the best baseball player. Any other definition and your making words mean what they don’t mean. Joe Mauer would be MORE valuable to the Yankees than Teixera, it doesn’t matter which of them are on which team.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
I would say Mauer if he played a full season but he didnt so I have to say Justin Morneu
August 17th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Ichiro also has a higher BA, OBP, and more SBs. Clearly Mauer is going to have a better BA, that is what he does. Tex also has more HR and RBI, and his team is dominating vs. a Twins team that won’t even compete to make the playoffs. Tex is also better defensively. He will win the gold golve there. So at the very least he has more power, better at driving in runners, and plays better defense than Mauer.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
This is crap. Morneau 2006 MVP ring a bell (9th in OPS)? This has nothing to do with NY vs MN. It has to do with counting stats bias and no positional adjustments.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
another baseball weirdness—the game-winning hit is determined by the hit that out the team ahead, so long as they stay ahead the rest of the game. i think that’s crap. it should be who knocked in the run that was one more than the other team. so, now, the GWH goes to the guy who made it 2-1 in the fourth inning, even if his team won 9-8 after the losing team rallied for six runs to make the score close. should be the guy who knocked in the ninth run, or in a 7-5 game, the sixth run. anyone with me still? zzzzz
August 17th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Taguchi… you watch a lot of baseball. When has the MVP ever been awarded to the most valuable player? It’s always for a player that is on a good team. Again, why are we trying to change this now?
In ‘99, we introduced another award that is applicable in situations just like this for the best “hitter” in each league. Like I said… Aaron to Mauer, MVP to Tex.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
“There is not a single thing that Mark Teixeira has done as well as Joe Mauer this year. Not one thing.”
Except the aforementioned HRs, RBIs, and defense. If by none you meant at least 3, you are right.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
I’m sorry, this is idiotic. Mauer plays catcher, and a very good catcher at that. A shitty catcher is more valuable than a great first baseman with the same hitting stats, and as is pointed out above to you Mauer is hitting BETTER than Teixera! Plus teix UZR shows that he’s actually been at best a decent first basemen this year. AND MAUER IS SLUGGING BETTER THAN TEIX.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
he’s a first baseman, a position that isn’t as demanding as catcher. Also, first base is a position where you put sluggers, catcher usually is not. Mauer is a very good catcher: anyone have a defensive stat for Mauer besides throwing out runners?
August 17th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
die eagles? better defense than mauer. they play diff positions, so moot
August 17th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Thanks, Taguchi, UZR is what I was going for.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
He doesn’t have more power, that is what slugging is. And you can’t drive in runners that aren’t there to drive in.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Ben Zobrist, Marcus Scutaro and Franklin Gutierrez all have a higher WAR than Teixeira. Clearly they deserve the MVP more than Mark.
/stathead’d
August 17th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
I seriously think the writers basically screwed up the whole mvp when they gave it to Morneau instead of Jeter. Last year Morneau should’ve gotten it but i don’t hink anyone wanted Morneau to suddenly have 2 mvps, so they gave it to Pedroia when Youk (prick) had a better year. So now they are gna screw up again, but doesn’t Mauer and Morneau have to split votes and then Texiera will benefit.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Let’s make the AL MVP, the Boston/New York Best Player Award. That will let all the schmucks have their own little argument about best player.
There can be another award for Best Player Who Will Be A Red Sox or Yankee Player In The Future Award. This award will allow the people in Boston and New York to look outside their silly little club to find out who they will pay more for in the next few years.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
I agree, as does die eagles.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
When has this stat ever been used to determine who wins Gold Gloves or plays better defense? In fact, when have statistics ever been used to determine Gold Gloves.
Maddux is one of the best defensive pitchers of all-time but there’s probably a handful of those that he got just because the writers checked his name out of habit.
The Gold Glove is moot. And the MVP has NEVER been decided because of defense. Ever.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
they play diff positions, so moot
I think you mean mute. You mean for him to shut up, right?
August 17th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
here’s a an award that should be: the best player for the money. the charlie finley award we could call it
August 17th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
on the fielding argument/how much more valuable a catcher is than a first baseman via Neyer:
Which might be a compelling argument, if Mauer was a first baseman and Teixeira was a catcher. If Mauer was a first baseman and Teixeira was a catcher, then Teixeira’s big edge in defensive value might well balance Mauer’s big edge as a hitter. But they’re not, in fact they’re exactly the opposite of those things. Mauer’s got a big edge as a hitter and as a defender.
How big is that latter edge? Hard to say. Our friends at FanGraphs don’t even try to measure a catcher’s defense, other than giving each catcher one standard adjustment. Mauer gets 3.5 “extra” runs for being a catcher, while Teixeira “loses” 8.8 runs merely for being a first baseman. The principle — as I hope you and Tyler Kepner and Mike Silva and everyone else already know — is that it’s significantly easier to find a first baseman who can hit, than a catcher. Quite simply, if you have a catcher and a first baseman who hit the same and play average defense at their positions, the catcher is obviously more valuable than the first baseman. I mean, this is basic stuff.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Please don’ talk about the Morneau MVP. I can still hear the bullshit reasons for why he got the MVP over Jeter.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Maddux is one of the best defensive pitchers of all-time but there’s probably a handful of those that he got just because the writers checked his name out of habit.
He fielded a lot of balls, for a pitcher. His style, which I love, is throw hittable pitches, but pitches that a guy can hit really hard right into the dirt. Man I loved Maddux.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Teixeira is not a better defender than Mauer. Get that thought out of your head immediately. The fact along that Mauer plays C and Teixiera 1B should be enough to convince you.
It’d be like saying an above average LF is a better defender than a below average SS. And that discrepancy isn’t even the case in this example.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
dirt, i’m nicer than you, so no. but you’re probably smarter than me is
August 17th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Best defensive first baseman = tallest midget?
Playing catcher (even playing it shittily) is better than being a top notch defensive first baseman.
And by all accounts, Mauer is an elite defender, so you’re wrong anyway.
As for driving in runners, Mauer has knocked in a greater % of runners than Teix, so another fail.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
The fact alone*
August 17th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
At SC: I don’t disagree that in the past that is how the MVP has been awarded (though not as consistently as the Andre Dawson, A-Rod, some of the Bonds, etc. indicate) but just because something has been done stupidly with poor information (winning team, rbis, homers) now that we have better information shouldn’t we use it?
August 17th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
This isn’t a NY media problem. They fucked it up last year with Pedroia, and they fucked it up in 2006 with Morneau.
Completely agree Mauer should win, but if he doesn’t it has more to do with baseball writers being fucking retards than it does with them being biased towards NY.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
can we end this now? Catcher>>>>>>>>>>>>>>First Base.
fin
August 17th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
And said spotlight has proven time and again it’s difficult to play under.
Not saying he should get it, Mauer’s numbers are retarded.
Sidenote: Nothing will be as atrocious as when Pat Hentgen won the Cy Young.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
same problem with the all-star voting being given to schmucks who stuff ballots. players, coaches, managers, GMs should vote anonymously, not allowed to vote for guys from own team
August 17th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Wow Die Eagles.
The immediacy of reaction to the contrary is a pretty good benchmark for when you say something stupid.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
meaning, the players, mgrs, GMs and coaches should vote for all postseason awards as well
August 17th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
@TST – Had we not created another award to acknowledge the “best hitter” in each league, I would agree with you. But we did create that award which is why I don’t.
Much of this argument takes place because the MVP is viewed as the preeminent award given in each league. That’s it’s connotation, right or wrong.
Personally, I’d rather have the guy that wins the Hank Aaron on my team than the MVP. Look at the list of winners. With the exceptions of Sosa (roids, obvs) and Prince Fielder, I think this award has been given to the correct recipients each year.
I’ll take the Hank, you can have the MVPs on your payroll.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
ENOUGH WITH THIS NY MEDIA SHIT.
Listen, Paolo, some baseball writers actually look for reasons to NOT vote for a Yankee, isn’t that biased also?
In this case, Mauer deserves the award. Last year, Mornaeu maybe should’ve taken t, but in 2006 that shit was definitely Jeters.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
He was SICK in RBI Baseball though, Hernia.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
give both the a.l. and n.l. mvp to pujols. there isnt a soul in either league fuicking with him.
/see now everyone is happy.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Eck taking the MVP with 80 IP has to come close.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Well, as you say the MVP is considered the BEST (and this is true of every sport, not just baseball), and as long as that’s the case I’m going to think it’s retarded if the actual best player doesn’t wint it.
Posnanski’s best paragraph:
August 17th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Palmero getting the GG when playing 13 games comes to mind.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Look at Adam Dunn’s stat line and then at Mark Teixiera’s.
Can you tell the difference?
August 17th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Pedroia was a perfectly defensible choice, also.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Mauer’s power numbers are inflated because of his odd burst. He’s hit 8 since June first. Not exactly staggering. His power numbers will drop, which will reduce his slugging and RBI numbers. By the end of the year Tex will be ahead of Mauer in slugging, HR, and RBI.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
At GSG, I don’t think anyone’s disagreeing that Jeter got jobbed (as did several other players, though I thought Jeter should have won at the time) in 2006.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
So, is there anyone here still going for Tex, or did that one guy just yell “RABBLE!” and leave?
August 17th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
TSH – I think the spotlight difficulty was mitigated by hitting left-handed in that ballpark.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
So it’s a “what die eagles die thinks will happen” award?
August 17th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
@GSG: The Palmiero thing was incredible and still amazes me. 13 games.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
I think this more proves how ridiculously undervalued Adam Dunn is, despite his defensive deficencies, but your point is well taken.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
RBI is a two-way street stat, because the Twins suck and don’t have as many base runners as the yanks have had.
@Taguhi – I know, just wanted to rant about that haha
August 17th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
the writers need to decide what this award actually means, and stick to it and vote accordingly.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
@ Tartan…do the 50 more Ks mean anything?
August 17th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
I am.
Pedroia sucks. That was a crap call. Morneau or Youkilis deserved it more.
And… now I have to leave for the White Sox game to avoid traffic. Goddamnit. Can we get these debate threads earlier in the day?
August 17th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Dunn is undervalued because GMs still subscribe to that bullshit “He strikes out too much!!*#*!#*” line of thinking.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Another reason Mauer deserves it — he’s 7′1″ and playiing catcher.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
@ die eagles
They mean extremely less than Dunn’s higher OBP and SLG. Or Dunn’s higher HR and RBI if you wanna get dumb on us.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO READ A BOOK NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO ARGHAJLFIJSKLJFJKHJA!IOJIOFPOSF????
August 17th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Somebody pointed out (not a Boston or New York guy) that they were surprised Jeter wasn’t getting more MVP love this year, since his numbers are very comparable to Pedroia’s last year and somebody had to be anointed the New York MVP canidate.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Teix at home: OPS 1.031
Teix on road: OPS 0.848
Give up, eagles.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Put Adam Dunn in Yankee Stadium. Now that’s an MVP candidate!
August 17th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
His best Paragraph is the one where talking about THIS years MVP he goes on to state that Mauer is on to win his THIRD batting. And he puts THIRD is all caps. Past performance is really relevant?
The Mauer case is so strong, but why weaken it with dribble like that.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Oh, and as to the Mauer missed 20 or so games argument, go look at what Mark Teixera did in April. Not having a player at all has roughly the same value.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
August 17th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Do you mind if I steal this one if I ever find myself in an MVP debate? That was pretty clever.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Mark Reynolds is the new Adam Dunn. Get with it.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Mark Reynolds has a career .345 OBP.
He’s need to get with it to be mentioned in the same breath as Dunn.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
So it’s a “what die eagles die thinks will happen” award?
Just look at his career totals, and even within this season. Mauer has dropped 247 points in slugging since June. He is 144 points higher than his career average. Tex is 14 points higher. Wait for the season to end before handing out post season awards. Plus, when the twins are 10 games out, who cares who will be playing for them.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
I’d say this years OBP (.374) is more likely what you will see from him the rest of his career. Which is right near Dunn’s career.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
boil it down to this: what team couldn;t make the playoffs if they didn’t have so and so? because what is “valuable”? if it’s monetary, then use production ratios for dollars paid. if it’s winning, then try to get as close as you can to whether a team wins as much or makes the playoffs with/without a guy. Pitchers, as onece every five days guys, should always be 28-3 with a 1.23 ERA to merit consideration. Closers have as much evidence as starters, because of frequency. will you all agree now?
August 17th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
This would never work because a young guy would always win and that would piss people off.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
But you like the idea…so let’s say, with either a minimum contract number or minimum years in league.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
I see what your trying to do, but as long as the entrenched baseball writing establishment exists this will never change. Add that to the general brainwashed fan (die eagles die) and it’s just going to be a slow process. But more people know right now why Mauer should win than they did two years ago, and way more than five years before that, etc. As the old gaurd dies off the new who are at least versed in basic sabermetrics (I mean, these really aren’t even the complicated concepts) should naturally gravitate towards getting it right. I hope.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Late to the party on this, but as of right now, Mauer deserves to win the award. Now with that being said, Mauer missing April is non trivial. And while his being a catcher is a huge deal, lets remember he has only caught about 75% of the games he has played. So while Tex or Morneau or whomever plays a less important position, some of that advantage for Mauer is mitigated by the fact that he hasn’t actually filled that more valuable role as often. So yes, he probably is the right choice as of today, but the backlash would seem to be a bit out of proportion.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
no, i know TST, we’re talking hypotheticals. the first change would be to eliminate media voting, as I said above, with peers, mgrs, GMs, and not allowed to vote for your own
August 17th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Kepner can collect his check from Scott Boras now.
August 17th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
i love the word dingbat. right up there with knucklehead
August 17th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Be nice to actually play the next 2 months before voting. Mauer will finish hitting 330 and leading his team to 79 wins. Not MVP. Tex will win it.
August 17th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Amazing how it took you two whole sentences not to follow your own advice. AL MVP Joe Mauer just hit another home run.
August 17th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Twins were 11-11 without Mauer and 45-50 since he came back from his injury. It just depends on what is one’s definition of valuable.
August 18th, 2009 at 4:24 am
If you think that a players value is affected by how shitty the rest of his team is I cannot help you. I assure you his value does not change because his teammates are good or bad.
August 24th, 2009 at 2:40 am
You are a god damn fucking retard for saying that. If Mauer was a 1B he would be the best in the league. If Tex was a catcher he would shit his pants. And clown is obviously a retard too. Sorry I drunk commented on a five day old post but holy shit people on here are dumb