Thoughts on 30 for 30: Muhammad and Larry
Boxing, ESPN, Movies, Video October 28th. 2009, 12:15pm
Muhammad and Larry looks at the fight history willfully forgot, Larry Holmes’ crushing 1980 defeat of Muhammad Ali. The disparity between the fighters’ abilities was palpable. The beat-down was brutal. It was never a question whether Ali would win, only whether he would function correctly afterward. The legend became vividly human on live TV.
Albert Maysles compiled footage from his original unaired documentary, infusing it with fresh perspective. The documentary was hands off, relying on the footage to explain. It did so spectacularly.
Ali is jarring initially, and for reasons beyond his mustache. He’s fat with an old man’s hunch. His breathing is labored. He struggles to put on his boots. He stops running to walk for a bit. He gets beaten badly in sparring sessions. Ali looks like Norman Mailer’s portrayal of him in The Fight progressed 10 years. He looks lazy.
As the film progresses, you realize it’s not weariness, age or lack of effort. Ali speaks and reacts slowly. There’s a scene where he struggles with the punching bag. It’s revealed that he went to the Mayo Clinic for neurological testing, where he could not touch his nose. He was probably suffering from the beginning effects of Parkinson’s. He should never have fought.
Ali is surrounded by sycophants, both employed by him and covering him. Everyone sees what is happening, but clings to the myth. The cognitive dissonance suffocates. Every small triumph is applauded. One of Ali’s handlers bizarrely claims he’s as fit as a 28-year-old. Everyone involved depends on Ali. No one stops him.
The title Muhammad and Larry fits because it is ultimately about two individuals, who seem a perfect contrast.
Muhammad is awkward. He’s an entertainer constantly playing to the crowd, whether it’s inventing quasi-poetic nonsense or putting on a weird magic show. By this point, he’s playing Muhammad Ali in a movie. We see glimpses of his true personality. He’s gentle with children and shy around women. His outward bravado barely masks his insecurity.
Larry is the heavyweight skewered by Malcolm Gladwell for having neither charisma nor imagination. He’s secure, content and confident. He lives a simple life in his hometown, with a wife he met before he was famous. While Ali is pampered, driven and constantly surrounded. Holmes drives by himself singing along to his own cassette tapes. Unlike Ali, we see him, even now, healthy, well-adjusted and happy.
Muhammad and Larry was tight, well-shot and excellent. In my opinion, it was the best of the 30 for 30 series thus far. Ali and those close to him were absent, but, perhaps, that was appropriate.
83 Responses to “Thoughts on 30 for 30: Muhammad and Larry”
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October 28th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Thankfully, Ali and Tyson missed each other by 5 years. Otherwise, we would have had a real life Drago-Creed match on our hands.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
so let me get this straight. malcolm gladwell and other writers can only get behind a boxer if he is banging random chicks everyday,spending their money like it is going out of style, talking trash constantly? is it because it is easier to write “SO andSO is hat is wrong with sports!” instead of digging a little and writing about someone who apparently is healthy and living well years after he retired?
October 28th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Really uncomfortable to watch, kind of like “The Wrestler”. Made me feel like an asswipe for ever enjoying boxing/wrestling to begin with.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
these 30 for 30’s have been great. I actually got to watch this one not as a rerun…very sad and depressing to see the deterioration of Ali’s motorskills and the beatdown that was coming.
Larry Holmes seemed like a pretty decent guy back then and still does.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
This documentary was sad. When Ali couldn’t even do the speed bag, man that’s crazy, because as a young guy I’ve never seen footage like that. The craziest part to me, was that they said he fought another fight even after that.
On a side note, who else was shocked that Larry Holmes had a car phone in 1980? Who knew?
October 28th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Saw it twice yesterday — once by myself and once with my dad (who didn’t remember this fight).
In a way, it is appropriate that Ali doesn’t appear in person to speak about the fight because the Ali that trained and entered into that ring wasn’t the young man who rumbled for so long but the legend that he became. The young man was long gone — beaten and destroyed by decades of brutal fights against tough opponents.
But it’s that legend that hangs over all the proceedings. The fight was “Ali-Holmes” even though Holmes was the champion at the time. Ali was paid $8 million versus $2 mil for Holmes. Even 30 years later, it’s Ali’s memory that raises people’s interest. Poor Larry Holmes just could never compete with that.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Larry Holmes came off as awesome in this. Loving these 30 30 things.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
it was sad to watch, knowing what was really happening, realizing that the more he fought the more he worsened his condition.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
That car phone was amazing.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
tyson in his prime > ali in his prime
haven’t seen this yet, but want to.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
I thought the best moment in the program was when Ali is getting out of the car and messing with/tickling his buddy. somebody metions Holmes and Ali gets really serious and his first response is “What did he say about me?” the look on his face and his demeanor when he says “I like him” seemed very reflective/introspective.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
tyson in his prime > ali in his prime
The only boxer tyson ever faced that could be equal to what ali was facing was evander holyfield…and he lost that fight!
October 28th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
if you think tyson fought holyfield when he was in his prime then you need to do some research. that fight wasnt during tyson’s prime.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
wheels – I think they said that last fight after he lost to Holmes went 10 rounds too. I was immediately shocked when I saw the celly too.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
anything past buster douglas was past tysons prime
October 28th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
I don’t think Gladwell is saying anything other than Holmes lacked charisma. He says the same thing about Nick Faldo. It’s not a knock on either guy, but is it not true? Another athlete one could say lacks charisma: ARod.
/sorry
October 28th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
wasnt
October 28th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
and Tyson wasn’t in his prime. Tysons prime was everything before Buster Douglas.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
or was. fuck me
October 28th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
thank you sparty.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
if you think tyson fought holyfield when he was in his prime then you need to do some research. that fight wasnt during tyson’s prime.
I know that fight wasn’t in his prime. But who exactly did Tyson fight in his prime that was anything compared to Liston, Frazier or Foreman?
October 28th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
isn’t lewis closet in size to Ali? i know the lewis-tyson fight was way at the end of his career, but the reach difference would have been trouble for tyson even if he was in his prime, especially against a guy who could dance like Ali.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
That’s how awesome Tyson was. He was just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than everyone.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
tyson was a beast and would have destroyed ali.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
The fact they let him fight another boxing match after that is even worse. Trevor Berbick I think. Where were the doctors? I still think is weird that Tyson beat both of them down a few years later. I remember older people loving every minute of the Tyson-Holmes beatdown. I think they blamed Holmes for the Ali fight and his subsequent parkinson diesease.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
You’re mistaking punching with boxing. Nobody hit harder than Tyson in his prime. But, when Tyson started slowing down and was forced to box he had nothing. The biggest mistake Tyson made (among many mistakes) was firing Kevin Rooney, who might have helped develop his skill and prolong his career.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
i miss tyson. who else is going to threaten to eat their opponents children
October 28th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Isn’t this what everyone was saying about Foreman (who was bigger than Tyson, right?) and Ali beat him near the end of his prime. Tyson never had to go long into fights, seems like if Ali didn’t get knocked the fuck out early he’d have a good shot.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Beat me to it. Ali was a much smarter fighter, and knew how to use his opponent’s strengths against them. Tyson just punched really hard.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Haven’t seen any of these yet. Sounds like I should.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
they were there, they either felt pressure to give a diagnosis that would allow him to fight, were incompetant, or no one listened/cared b/c they knew Ali only had a few more fights left and the cash cow would be gone.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
or: when tyson was no longer in his prime…
October 28th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
I think biggest mistake was still facial tattoo.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
That’s how awesome Tyson was. He was just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than everyone.
That’s like saying the Klitschko’s are >>>>>>>>>>> than everyone today because the rest of the heavyweights suck due to the good ones switching to MMA.
Tyson was the bogeyman. No doubts there. He intimidated opponents before setting foot in the ring.
But he was not the boxer Ali was. Ali wouldn’t have lost to Buster Douglas.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Oh, Tyson could box early in his career. Man would start every fight with that head weave. Don’t get him confused with Frazier. He started “just punching” during that Douglas fight.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
TSH – definitely. the only one I’ve missed so far is the Baltimore Colts 30 for 30…just haven’t caught the rerun yet. the others have all been money.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
we have had this discussion too many damn times to count. and i will say this: the only thing Ali was the greatest at was marketing himself. the closest person to tyson would have been joe frazier who beat ali. i think tyson hit just a tad harder though.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
I’m looking forward to seeing this, though I’m prepared to be bummed. And, next week’s feature is on Len Bias. Also promises to be light-hearted.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
I think biggest mistake was still facial tattoo.
I think he’d say “managing his money” would be 1 and 1a.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
I agree with this. Ali had a great chin. Might have tired Tyson out and won late by decision. But it would’ve been a great fight.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
no, because the Klitcschko’s don’t destroy fighters like Tyson did.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
If you saw the Rumble in the Jungle doc on HBO, Ali’s doctor than was Ferdi Something or other. In his interviews for that, he came off as a real asshole. In this doc though he seemed pretty sincere about Ali, and he wouldn’t be his doctor for his last couple of fights, because he told him he was done, and it was going to kill him.
In the doc last night, his doctors we’re giving him meds that were making him even worse before the fight. They said that he couldn’t even make it up the steps into the ring, in won of his training sessiosn the weak of the fight, because he was so weak from the meds.
Money will make people do bad things.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
you’re so wrong it’s not even funny.
tyson, when cus damato was still alive, was THE PERFECT textbook fighter. defense, offense, setting up punches, speed.
when tyson became all about the HR moonshot and abandoned the jab, that’s when he went to shit.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
412, I saw in another thread your mention of Mr. Tony’s old show. If you aren’t aware, he’s on ESPN 980 now. iTunes has the podcasts. But nothing beats his national ESPN show.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
this is a good story on the Berbick fight
October 28th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
The biggest thing that went wrong for Tyson was out of his control. Cus D’Amato’s death was the tipping point.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
c’mon Duffy, how about a spoiler alert. I have this thing on the DVR.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
you’re so wrong it’s not even funny.
tyson, when cus damato was still alive, was THE PERFECT textbook fighter. defense, offense, setting up punches, speed.
when tyson became all about the HR moonshot and abandoned the jab, that’s when he went to shit.
/Exactly Right.
//I’m a big boxing fan, and I’ve seen a lot of Boxing docs, and last night’s ranks right up there as one of the best I’ve ever seen. Ferdie Pacheo was someone who Ali really should’ve been listening too back after the Spinks fight.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
That car phone was amazing
Larry Holmes right? yes it was
October 28th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Tyson was undeniably an epic fighter. But, have you taken a look at just who he fought? What a bunch of stiffs! He fought Holyfield when he was 30 (not sure that’s necessarily past one’s prime) and he was brought back down to Earth. Were any of the guys he fought in his “prime”, however you want to define it, the least bit good?
October 28th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
I don’t think Tyson would have ever fought Ali even if Ali was still fighting. In the Tyson documentary he talked about how Ali was his hero and how he wanted to destroy Trevor Berbick for beating Ali.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
should’ve gone with Apollo Creed’s trainer.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Thanks for the tip, Nomo (much shorter than your current name). I’ll check that out.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
It’s an age thing, it’s a after prison/not training/becoming a massive fuck up thing.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
How do I spoil something that’s already happened in real life?
October 28th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
It’s disgraceful that all these mentions on the downfall of Tyson’s career and no mention of Robin Givens.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
I’m old enough to have seen them both fight in their prime. All I can say is that it would have been a great fight. Never saw anyone tougher than Tyson and I never saw another heavyweight who could move and punch like Ali. I’m not sure Tyson, who usually knocked out guys early, would have been able to get to Ali before becoming totally frustrated. A frustrated Tyson would have left himself open for Ali to knock out.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Ali’s size and jab would have destroyed Tyson. The length would have been too much to overcome. Tyson would never had worked his way into Ali’s kitchen and launched one of his vicious uppercuts – just never would have happened. Ali was a strong man too. Would never have been bullied when he did’t want to. Size matters in boxing.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
so he’s penalized for destroying all the competition he faced?
so what if there wasn’t another great boxer in his prime at the same time…you can only beat who you face. and it’s not like tyson was ducking anyone, ala mayweather.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
57 posts without a white guy bringing up Rocky Marciano?
October 28th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
ey yo gabagool rocky marciano.
there you go.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Speaking of guys who took a lot of punishment in the ring:
I’ve watched his fights with Ali (twice), Frazier, Foreman and Patterson. This man should be a vegetable based on those fights alone but he is one of the finest public speakers I’ve ever seen. He does a ton of anti-drug work with youth in Toronto.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Canadians? Pshaw.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
because marciano was a bum?
October 28th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
It’s disgraceful that all these mentions on the downfall of Tyson’s career and no mention of Robin Givens.
yum, yum, gimme some. That sitcom she was on was beyond terrible, but you can trace Amanda Bynes fame right back to it, in only two steps. She wasn’t even born when it was on either, I don’t think.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Ali had some good comp back then. Tyson was fighting guys who looked like my cousin when he got out of Prison.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
I agree. I would have liked to have seen Tyson have top level competition–rather than the boxing equivalent of New Mexico State–when he still had his “fastball” (i.e., 85-89). When he fought Holyfield he was outclassed–and he was only 30 at the time. Would it have been different had he faced Evander earlier? We’ll never know…but I’m not going to make a statement such as “Tyson > Ali” never having seen Tyson fight and beat a worthwhile opponent.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
It’s a shame that Cus died because Tyson was at his best when D’Amato was molesting the shit out of him.
/allegedly
October 28th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
HBO ran that title unification series where Tyson destroyed everybody who was anywhere close to a contender. Anybody who wanted to fight him could have fought him, and a lot of people did, and they all got murdered. That was awesome television.
I never saw Ali fight, but I’ve seen Ali fight (foreman, frazier II).
October 28th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
and that’s why im the king of hyperbole.
/points at crown
October 28th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
did don king have anything to do with tysons downfall?
October 28th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
I thought we weren’t mentioning this out of respect for his Italian heritage.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
yes.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I hope Don King ends up broke before he dies. That guy is the biggest scumbag on earth. He’s probably stolen a billion dollars from fighters in his life.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
billions? TRY TRILLIONS!!!
/points at crown
October 28th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
sir its capicola
October 28th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Razor Ruddock agrees with this.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I was shocked to hear some doctir, via video tape of Ali’s weight, determined he had a thyroid problem and put him on pills that Ali subsequently over used. Unbelievable to me.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
/Valuev’d
October 28th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Thankfully, Ali and Tyson missed each other by 5 years. Otherwise, we would have had a real life Drago-Creed match on our hands.
If he dies, he dies.
/Dolph’d
October 28th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
I think Lennox Lewis was underrated….that guy barely got touched his whole career….dude was long with a lethal jab. Even in his prime, Tyson would have been hard pressed to get in tight enough to do anything to him.
Got jobbed in the 1st Holyfield fight and then won the next.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
One of the lamest arguments in sports is the Ali / Tyson argument. There is no comparison. Tyson was great yes, but he beat nobody during his prime years…and it isn’t because he was >>>>>>> much greater than everybody–it had a lot to do with how the heavyweight division by that time was a shell of itself. Pinklon Thomas, Bonecrusher Smith, Mitch Green, Carl Williams, on old Trevor Berbick, an old Larry Holmes, an old and blown up cruiserweight in Michael Spinks. Come on. If we’re comparing primes (remember, anything really after Ali came back from the suspension can’t be considered his prime), than Ali still has the better resume of top fighters beaten. Add in him winning 2 of 3 against Frazier and wins against Foreman and Norton and it is crazy to even think that Tyson sniffs Ali’s jock.
And also, if they ever fought each other you know that Ali is boxing circles around Mike and eventually knocking him out (especially if it is a 15 rd fight like back in the days). Ali had an incredible chin and would not fold under pressure. Mike had a serviceable chin and would completely fold the moment he realized he couldn’t bully somebody into quitting.
Yes, I may be somewhat passionate on this argument, simply for the lunacy of it.
October 31st, 2009 at 4:11 pm
My comment on this to fill in the blanks left in the aftermath when Don King cheated Ali also out of his money from the fight did not go through due to connectivity issues, so it will have to wait another day or you can perhaps Wiki it or otherwise. The tale is told also in Ali’s biography and has a great lesson for all of is when doing business in the positive and negative contexts. Great write-up by Duffy as is rare whenever he ventures outside of soccer.