Super Bowl Stunner: Brady’s Legacy Tainted?
NFL February 4th. 2008, 1:10pm
We don’t think so. The three-time Super Bowl champ is still among out top five QBs in the last 35 years (nothing against old-timers, but it’s difficult for us to compare modern players to guys from the 50s and 60s). A win probably would have nudged him into 2nd, though.
1. Joe Montana, 2. Peyton Manning, 3. Bernie Kosar Tom Brady, 4. John Elway, 5. Dan Marino. Just missing out, in no particular order: Steve Young, Brett Favre, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman and Dan Fouts. We’re probably one of the few to put Manning ahead of Brady, but that’s our story and we’re sticking too it. Numbers can be manipulated to prove anyone is the best – it’s all subjective and up for discussion. Manning’s weapons cancel out the defenses Brady has had behind him, and then you take into account factors like coaching, and the dome and you have a lively discussion. And some point, you could pick a winner out of a hat. We went with Manning, but not by much.
Photo: Icon Sports Media
75 Responses to “Super Bowl Stunner: Brady’s Legacy Tainted?”
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February 4th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
1. Elway
2. Montana
3. Manning
4. Marino
5. Brady
February 4th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
The only thing that got tainted last night was the Patriots O-line. Matt Light will be cleaning the smell of Osi’s taint off his beard for weeks.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Interesting analysis on Manning/Brady but I still think Brady (no way! Im a pats fan) just because when faced with the ludacris (sp) pressure last night he still put his team in position to win. Didnt make the massive bone-headed mistakes Peyton has in the past. You are right though its 1. Joe 2a. Brady 2b. Manning
February 4th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
if by tainted you mean its going to be harder to make the case for him being the best ever now, sure, but yeah he has to be mentioned top five, so as far as being tainted goes thats not too shabby
February 4th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
why did you have to throw bernie in there? that hurts.
eh, brady’s legacy is a little tainted, it’s hard to play well when you’re on your ass all day. and he didn’t have time at the end to really do anything other than pray a hail mary was completed. but still, it was a pretty ugly performance.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
You have to put Brady ahead of Manning in my opinion. 2 more rings, both won with a lot less than Peyton had on offense. Plus, he had a better statistical season this year than did Manning, so like, that argument is gone now too.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Tainted? Come on now . . .
1. Elway
2. Montana
3. Brady
4. Manning
5. Favre
February 4th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
1. Elway
2. Brady
3. Manning
4. Montana
5. Boomer
February 4th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
60% completions with a TD and a fumble from his blindside? wouldnt call that ugly.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
What an ironic picture. Brady getting smacked by a guy named Tuck? An obscure rule starts this ride back in 01, and now a DE with the rest of his teammates brings the evil empire down?
Instant Karma is gonna get you ~ John Lennon
February 4th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Only tainted in that he is not widely going to be considered the best ever as of today. Had they won yesterday, he would be. At the end of his career, if he is to be considered the best ever he must win at least one more ring, perhaps two more – to really put himself atop.
As was already said, yesterday was more about the o-line than Brady or Moss.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
I think the list you have is pretty stellar, but I would throw Steve Young into the top-5. In every respect he’s on par or better than Elway – rings, arm strength, mobility, winning%. John Elway might be higher profile, and Young did benefit from playing on better teams, but still…
February 4th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
If Terrell Davis never existed, how far down would you find Elway?
57% Comp.
More Int’s than TD’s three years, equal number once.
At the end of the Brady/Manning Era, it will go:
Montana
Brady
Manning
Elway
Favre
Marino
February 4th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Patriots mystique tainted? Yes. Brady’s legacy? Absolutely not. Like Sean John said, it’s Brady over Manning, mainly because of the rings.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
how the hell can you guys be putting elway at no. 1? he went out on top, but those 3 big losses in SB’s can’t be that far from memory…
1. neil o’donnell
2. jim drukenmiller
3. heath shuler
4. any detmer
5. tim rattay
now THAT’S a list.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
NSR – I see your point on Elway-Davis, but you could make similar arguments about Montana-Rice or Manning-Harrison.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
stopmikelupica…young was a good qb, but to say he was on par with elway in terms of arm strength is ridiculous. young never shattered shoulder pads or dislocated fingers. elway was the paul bunyan of QB’s.
still not no. 1 tho.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Nick, Brady over Montana? Maybe if he had won last night but not now.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
@cbh: You’re probably right. I always felt Joe Montana was a beneficiary of great circumstances, but maybe last night’s L puts Montana back in front. I didn’t really think hard about the list. Just wanted to throw 4 up there, then hit you with Boomer.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Elway is definitely a name that goes one of two ways – up at the top or nowhere near it. It does seem odd that he doesn’t get the title until TD gets there …
IU grad – very, very good comment.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
whoa whoa whoa – spencer, if you put neil o’donnell up there you better have dave brown in your ‘just missed the cut’ group.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Montana
Elway
Brady
Manning
Marino
Any day now, Tarvaris Jackson’s gonna crack that list…
February 4th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
412,
I’m with you. But I think a RB is different than a WR, which are usually made by the QB. Would Harrison be this good without Manning? Rice, who some argue is the best player ever, did certainly benefit from playing with two of the best QB’s ever.
What TD did against the Packers was incredible. Elway? Not so good.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
What he said.
I would flip Marino and Favre, though. And if Brady wins another he moves to #1. Where does Bart Starr rank, though? Or are we sticking with modern-age QBs?
February 4th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
TBL,
Spencer I agree. Elway was killed for years by the national media as a great QB but he couldn’t close the deal after his gettting ran out 42-10 and 55-10*. Elway is great but not number one.
*other quarterback on the winning end of 55-10 beatdown: Joe Montana.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Elway over Montana ?
I call shenanegans.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Bottom – i put it in the last 35 years, taking us back to 1973. wanted bradshaw to be in contention, but nobody who thrived in the 60s because a) never saw them, b) you’re only going on stats, c) the league was much smaller and completely different at the time
February 4th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
just because everyone else has now broken his records, fran tarkenton is no longer part of the equation…this proves that you need rings to secure legacy
So add in all lthe tangibles which will exclude guys like Dilfer, Eli, Big Ben etc….stats and moxie and throw # of rings into the mix you get
1. Montana
2. Bradshaw
3. Aikman
4. Brady
5. Elway
6. Farve
7. Manning
February 4th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
kendynamo…na, brown was overrated.
wait, if the criteria i was using before was shittiest QB’s i can arbitrarily think of, then shouldn’t brown be underrated if he’s not on the list? thanks, you gave me something to think about for the rest of the day in lieu of doing any actual work.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Despite never winning the big game it also says somthing about legacy when neither tarkenton or jim kelly have made four trips but came away empty, and elway made a record five trips with only two wins…give Elway one or two more out of those five and we wouldnt even be discussing this
February 4th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
TBL, WTF?
Manning over Brady? Statisically, they’re quite similar after you account for the fact that Manning has played in more games. And Brady has 3x the SBs that Manning has. What else do you need?
And if you don’t want to look at the bottom lines, which Brady trumps Manning in, you can argue that Manning’s stats are inflated by being in a more vertical offense his entire career. You can also argue that Manning had better weapons, overall, for his career. In no way can you make the argument that Manning is better than Brady anymore. That was so 2005.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
mikeychx…
adding in intangibles like…beating the no.4 guy on your list who was leading an 18-0 team in the super bowl with 2 4th quarter TD drives? as consistently great as all those guys on your list are, eli has a more signature moment than all of them except elway and montana and, if he continues his playoff long trend of being pretty sweet, then he’ll definitely be way up there.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Aikman is/was terribly overrated and is a questionable hall-of famer. Emmitt Smith was the heart and sould of that team. Without him, like when he sat out the first three games of the ‘93 season, they sucked. When they missed Aikman, like when Jason Garrett filled in on Thanksgiving, they still won.
I won’t even mention possibly the best O-Line in NFL history.
I will argue this till the day I die.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Why is Bernie Kosar being discussed ? Are we talking about QB’s who never MADE a Super Bowl ? QB’s who choked in the AFC championship game ? (Sorry Spencer)
February 4th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Chips – I guess you didn’t read the post.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
@Bottomless: Manning has yet to lose in a Super Bowl. Brady has.
/Being contrarian is fun
February 4th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
As a Bronco fan let me defend Elway a little. Elway got his teams to 3 Super Bowls all by himself (basically). Quick name 4 players from the Broncos from the 80’s that went to the Super Bowl, I bet only Spencer (Browns fan) can do it without looking it up.
I mean Montana was throwing to Taylor, Rice, and handing off to Craig. Plus he had a better offensive line, and a better defense. The Cowboys of the 90’s had the triplets, Elway’s 80’s teams were basically Elway’s alone (and if you deny that then you can start pushing to get more Broncos in the Hall of Fame.) (I say that as having season tix to the 80’s Broncos and LOVING those teams. But they were clearly inferior to the NFC’s top teams at the time).
When Elway finally got some help around him he won his Super Bowls, I mean even the Bills who went and lost 4 had Kelly, Thomas, Reed, Bruce Smith, Lofton.
Anyways:
Elway
Manning
Montana
Brady
Unitas
February 4th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
I am one who tends to side with your arguement NSR…I would have loved to have seen Barry Sanders play behind that line…I do think that Michael Irvin should have been given more credit too…no matter how much coke he did with all of those strippers
Problem is, I cant argue with the three rings…if you factor in rings as one third of the equation then Bradshaw, Aikman, Elway will consistently rank ahead of the other guys
February 4th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
NSR…agree, to a point. emmitt and troy were horribly overrated. you and i could have made the pro bowl at either position with that line while throwing to michael irvin, alvin harper and jay novacek (with the best fullback of the era not named tom rathman in moose).
Gonzo…eh, im over it.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
I still don’t understand how one can put Elway over Montana.
Montana–16 Playoff wins. 63% comp, 45 Td’s to only 21 INT’s
Elway–12 wins, 55%, 27/21.
Brady’s the only one that can touch Montana. And I don’t like either of them.
I would also argue the AFC was very, very weak during the Broncos’ runs to the Super Bowl. I mean, all he had to do was beat Cleveland three times and he’s in.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
TBL,
Numbers are objective. There’s no subjectivity in a total; arguing whether the metric represents greatness vs. yards/TDs/complete % is valid. I don’t think stats tell the story about greatness, but they do represent something. And Brady and Manning are virtually even in all categories. The one total that is not a stat as much as a tally of accomplishments is SB wins. Brady has 3. Manning has 1. Again, just a quantity of SB wins and doesn’t represent true greatness, but Brady has 3x Manning’s.
I agree about arguing about the “other” factors, but I fail to see how the Patriots defense cancels out Manning’s weapons. For those other factors you mention, I wonder what your reasoning is.
I thought I wouldn’t want to talk football after last night, but lively discussions suck me in. Gosh, I hate sports.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
now that one hurt.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Sorry Spencer. I, uh, forgot.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
in a team game, comparing rings isn’t entirely fair (ask marino). individual qb stats aside, brady’s teams won with a good defense; peyton’s won despite a bad one.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Jibble,
Montana’s first super bowl wins he was throwing to the likes of Freddie Solomon, Charle Young, and handing off to Ricky Patton.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
NSR…bastard. fucking horse-faced elway.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
What did Peyton win with a bad defense? I seem to remember him tossing pick after pick in that playoff run and the defense stepping up and dominating. The Pats won the second super bowl with good defense? Right.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
TUCK RULES!
February 4th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Justin Tuck sez SMASH!
February 4th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
I agree that TD pushed Elway over the top, but he CARRIED those teams to the first three super bowls. He had nobody on that offense.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
It’s impossible to compare QBs to each other because it is such a team game. Brady was awful this post-season yet he was only 2:40 away from winning (another) Super Bowl. What I want to know is what happened to the Tom Brady that was completing passes down the field from earlier this season. That Brady didn’t show up in the playoffs.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
1. Ron Powlus
2. Ryan Leaf
3. Akili Smith
4. Heath Shuler
5. Andre Ware
February 4th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Lots of cover 2 and umbrella cover 4s with a man on Randy. Those defenses opens up the middle of the field and anything short, respectively. Against Jax, he did took what was given to him and went 26/28. Against SD, he got mixed up around the goal line, just a bad mistake on his part. Against NYG, they played straight up cover 2 a lot, and when in man would have Wilson shade Moss and double team him.
I think they waited too long to realize that if there were only going to have 5 block, they need to run slants, in-cuts, curls etc., not go routes and posts. Yet, they seemed a bit stubborn.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Brady should’ve hard counted at least once from the gun, too. It was maybe a bit too loud there for it, and maybe they were in a silent count which is why Light and Kaczur were so slow to fire off.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Wildcat-
Good point on the ‘81 49ers, but the fact remains that Elway took 3 average teams to the Super Bowl. Everyone smashes him for losing those games but he got them there and those were great teams that they lost too. IMO getting there and losing shouldn’t be considered as detriment to his legacy.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Of course nobody ever mentions Favre losing a SB with a team that was at least as good as the Denver team they lost to, if not better.
Favre got there twice and won once while Elway got their 5 times and won twice.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
That team was much better than Denver that year, talent-wise. Halberstam’s book on Belichick has an anecdote about someone talking about that, too. How the team with the best talent doesn’t always win, yada yada. It proved true last night. But is something Favre lovers always overlook. Why? Because he’s a gunslinger, of course!
February 4th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
My grammar is hideous in that last post. Give me a break: I’m sad and shocked still.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Jibble,
I will disagree about losing shouldn’t be a detriment to Elway’s legacy. Elway is a legend but I’m afraid that the big losses early in his career can’t push him over the top of “the” greatest of the modern era.
Fact is that Montana’s 4 super bowl wins, 3 time super bowl MVP, signature moment with the game winning drive vs Cinci is greater than Elway’s 2-3 super bowl record.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Wildcat,
But other than the ‘81 49ers, his teams were LOADED!. Great coach, great players. And 5 games, while 5 big games, aren’t a big enough statistical sample to measure someones greatness off of solely. There’s other factors in there. If you’re only evaluating SB wins, you gotta put Bradshaw in there right?
Either way the argument, in my mind, is between Elway and Montana. Manning, and Brady aren’t there yet (Yes i know I just put Manning before Montanta, I’m fixing that). This has to be modern era too, because names like Bart Starr, Otto Grahm, Sammy Baugh and Johnny U have to have theiir due as well. But Modern Era:
Elway
Montana
Brady
Manning
Bradshaw
February 4th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
thanks to all of you who have defended john elway. you can’t judge a quarterback solely on numbers. elway absolutely carried a football franchise for a decade and a half. he carried three mediocre teams to the super bowl. he never played with a pro bowl receiver or running back in those early years. when the broncos finally got him some help, he won two super bowls. name me a football ogranization that wouldn’t take 5 super bowl appearances in a 15-year stretch.
john elway is the greatest football player of all time. period.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
john elway the greatest football player of all time. Whitlock you fat bastard put the crack pipe down. John Elway should be sucking off Terrel Davis until that bastard dies of a headache. If it wasnt for TD and shanahan developing that running game, Elway would of NEVER won
February 4th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
I am going to call shenanigans on the comparisons between Manning and Brady as far as stats are concerned. There is still no comparison between the two, Manning is still far superior to Brady (and everyone else) in stats.
Right now, Manning has played ten full seasons and Brady has played seven, so Manning has three seasons of stats advantage.
In those three extra seasons, Manning has thrown for 15,256 more yards than Brady. If Manning retired today, then Brady would have to average 5085 yards a year for three years to equal Manning’s numbers. I hope I don’t need to put that in perspective. Manning has more 4000 yd passing seasons than Brady has played total—Manning is up to 8 seasons in passing that mark.
Manning has also passed for 109 more TDs than Brady in three years extra years. In the same scenario as above, Brady would have to throw for about 36 TDs a year for three years to equal that pace. That’s going to be tough for obvious reasons, but especially tough when you consider Brady’s previous career high in TDs was 28.
Peyton also has a higher career completion percentage, passer rating, and yards per completion.
Basically, Peyton is much better than Brady statistically, and its not even close. Anyone who claims otherwise is fooling themselves. Those numbers alone tell me Manning is the better QB, and suggests that maybe no one in recent NFL history has been held back by his teammates than Manning has been.
Talk about rings and then you have a point, but in sheer stats, no one in history will be in Manning’s neighborhood after he is done. Also, if Manning gets even ONE more ring….that vaults him ahead of Brady in my book and there shouldn’t even be a debate..
February 4th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Jibble,
We’re going to just disagree.
Only if we had a head-to-head Montana vs Elway game where Montana didn’t have all of those 49er weapons…wait we did.
February 4th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
make that “no one in recent NFL hsitory has been held back more by his teammates than Manning has been.”
February 4th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
“john elway is the greatest football player of all time. period.” Because Jeff George says so.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Finally we can put this talk of ‘Brady as good as Montana’ to bed.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
John Elway is the greatest football player of all time. Except for those better than him, which would include Jim Brown.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Narrator – the talk is only delayed until the next time Brady leads the Pats to the Super Bowl. When he finishes his career with equal or more SB championships, more yards, more TD’s and more every statistic, then Brady will be considered better than Montana. Not yet, but it will happen.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Wildcat,
Yes… 7 weeks later Elway beat him in KC (In OT) 20-17.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Touché
February 4th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
I can see Brady throwing 30+ for the next three years. Say they re-sign Moss, I’m sure the over/under on Brady TD’s next year would be 35, at least, right? There would be no way Vegas could set a line lower than that after a 50 TD year.
Peyton/Tom: (64.2/63), (94.7/92.9), YPC (12.0/11.5), yards per attempt (7.7/7.2).
Looks pretty close…
Before this year, you honestly think that Manning had more weapons to work with than Brady? He played last year’s AFC title game with Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, and Troy Brown. And I don’t even want to bring up the Doug Gabriels, Fred Colemans, and the Bethel Johnsons that he had to throw to.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Fixed.
February 4th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Montana was 34 or 35 when he won his 4th. Brady is 30. He has some time to catch Joe still. Statistically, he’ll surpass Montana in all the major categories by 34, too.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
cardzfan is right. What do you think that Manning is going to be doing while Brady is playing catchup and trying to close the very sizable gap? Twiddling his thumbs? The other key thing is that despite the 3 year difference in stats Manning and Brady are about the same age. Manning is 31 while Brady is 30.