Live-Blogging Mixed Martial Arts’ Primetime Network Debut: Part 2
MMA May 31st. 2008, 11:45pm
11: 45 - Wooooooooooooooow… Apparently we broke the site.
Seriously though - that was nasty.
11:46 - That was bar far the toughest stiff Kimbo has ever faced. Will he be able to get all the way back to the locker room before he goes to sleep?
11:48 - Did ANYONE see the guy in the vest that congratulated Kimbo after his interview? Get a screen cap. He was built like a brick house.
11:50 - I’m not too sure what is going on in realtime, as we’ve rewound on the DVR. Apparently Kimbo used to use the bathroom wherever he could. Nice.
11:52 - So we’re all in agreement that Kimbo isn’t for real now, right?
11:52 - Dana White just called to give me an expletive filled tirade about what a joke Elite XC is.
Midnight - Time to drink while I’m not in front of a computer. I think this was a huge success - The live-blog, not the show. They had it through the first two rounds of the Lawler-Smith fight.
Then it fell apart. Conspiracy theories will surface starting….now. Two controversial stoppages to end the card. Kimbo was pretty much exposed by a glass-jawed-nobody. Anyway, thanks to all that stopped by and contributed tonight. I’m sure we’ll discuss this tomorrow.
101 Responses to “Live-Blogging Mixed Martial Arts’ Primetime Network Debut: Part 2”
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May 31st, 2008 at 11:46 pm
I’m at a loss for words.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:48 pm
That thing was prepped to pop. They could have drained it before the fight. That was their out if Kimbo started losing.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:49 pm
“aim for the ear, kimbo!”
May 31st, 2008 at 11:49 pm
R. Kelly’s operetta is on IFC, where’s the post for that?
May 31st, 2008 at 11:50 pm
The only thing we learned tonight was everything that the UFC fighters have been saying is true. You get a legit big man or a guy who has a ground game and Kimbo would be a slice of toast.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Gotta love that post fight coverage. Jeez, CBS bailed on that quick.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:50 pm
woulda been a lot better if the ref finished him off after he hit him in the face
May 31st, 2008 at 11:51 pm
I think Kimbo still has a lot of work to do. The fact that it took almost three rounds and a controversial stoppage to win means that he still needs to make progress.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:51 pm
Also, overall, I don’t think that show did anything for MMA. I think it was a disappointment for the sport.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:51 pm
I think cbs was runnin about 45 minutes late…even though the first two fights went quick, the other 3 went kinda long
May 31st, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Repeating what I said in the last post How often do you see the loser on his feet and the winner flat on his back?
May 31st, 2008 at 11:53 pm
kimbo is an old 34 and doesnt have the stamina, they chose the right guy to market but he isnt going to be around much longer. unless they bag the PPV (which isnt happening) and they organize one main arena for the BEST fighters instead of it just being a free for all then this operation isnt going to get any bigger than it is now. this was exciting though, i’ll give it that
May 31st, 2008 at 11:54 pm
cauliflower ear? more like the whole garden…
May 31st, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Those of you who have never experienced Elite XC, now you know. It gets crazy. I don’t really think they were right for network television.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:56 pm
can a brother get a screengrab of Thompson as he was yelling at the ref that the stoppage was BS?
I can already hear (and read) many many folks thinking the fight was rigged, and the ref was pro-Kimbo … i hardly know the sport and it seems like kimbo may have gotten help
May 31st, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Elite will be out of business within 2 years. Even the production of the show(camera, music, set-up) was far behind. WEC puts this to shame, let alone UFC. And don’t give me the “they are new, wait until they get money and some time b.s.” Gary Shaw is going to be the black sheep of MMA, just like boxing.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Wow,
Dana White must be cracking up. This was pretty bad. Carrano fight was decent. Lawler fight was fight of the night with a bs call. Slice is who I thought he was and Thompson let him off the hook!!
May 31st, 2008 at 11:58 pm
I tell you one thing, I’m a boxing guy. I love boxing. MMA…. well, never been a fan. But that fight was one of the most intense fights I’ve seen in a while. I was definitely on the edge of my seat. Now, I’m sure there have been better mma fights, but from what I saw, I liked.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Mozatta,
I like the commentary, thats about it. And yes the fight should have been stopped in round two. Kimbo had no defense even when getting hit with weak shots. And the ref was yellin “He wasnt(hitting) hard” BS
June 1st, 2008 at 12:00 am
Q: Why’d the ref call the fight when he saw the ear instead of at least calling a Dr. to check it out?
June 1st, 2008 at 12:00 am
TBL, the one defense was Thompson really wasn’t hitting Kimbo when he had him on the ground for that minute. Any legit fighter would have finished Kimbo right there. But like I said, everything from the production to the fights was below average. It’s not even a B show, it’s more of a C show. Far, far behind UFC, Pride, WEC.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:00 am
Through the first two rounds of the championship fight - it was a rousing success. Then it fell apart.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:01 am
I’d say that sums it up too. That and Gary Shaw Inc. wants to give me an ulcer.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:02 am
The Natural is on Bravo right now….looks like I won’t be going to bed soon.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:02 am
so would kimbo have a shot against brock lesner? probably not, right?
June 1st, 2008 at 12:02 am
@TBL: There was two or three pretty biased moments.. Both times Thompson had a big advantage on the ground the ref stepped in. Once standing them up and the second time he told thompson he had to shift position. Obviously Slice has the big advantage punch for punch.
Im not sure if it was “fixed” as I was yelling, but for a casual fan it sure comes off badly that the last two fights were stopped to the benefit of the bigger name when the loser wanted to keep fighting. Thats been the knock on boxing for a while, and if they want to have any long term success they need to avoid it.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:02 am
And to think that people were putting Lesnar over Slice.. I was watching this yelling OH MY GOD BROCK WOULD KILL HIM!!
June 1st, 2008 at 12:02 am
mistake…Slice over Kimbo
June 1st, 2008 at 12:03 am
I think most people new to MMA are going to come away from the show thinking like justinsands a couple posts above me. It’s simple to say the show did nothing for MMA and wasn’t a great set of fights. But, that’s comparing it to UFC and what not. Gus Johnson did a better job than I have seen out of any announcers in MMA before, and that is going to go a long way.
Now, they come away with Kimbo surviving controversially and they can absolutely sell a rematch of that Lawler/Scott fight. It seems like they’ve got a decent base to build and having it on network TV is a huge advantage over UFC.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:04 am
TBL…not a chance. Lesnar would destroy Kimbo. Lesnar is a great wrestler. The ground game you saw from Thompson was amateur compared to Lesnar’s ground game. Keep in mind that prior to Lesnar being submitted he was picking Mir apart.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:04 am
I dont know man, i think the guy hit kimbo with like 12 straight elbows/forearms to the head in a row - and that was in like 15 seconds
but yes, i see your argument - when you get someone down, you finish them. I’m more for the standing around and slugging it out - like it’s a bar fight or something. maybe it’s because i’m new, but the rolling around and tactical ground shit reminds me of a 75-72 NBA game or a 1-0 baseball game.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:05 am
Good: Commentary, Shamrocks MMA 101 lesson. Carrano and title fight (minus decision)
Bad: Crowd, Lawler/Slice stoppage
Ugly: Everything else
June 1st, 2008 at 12:06 am
kimbo should go to the art of shaving…
June 1st, 2008 at 12:07 am
Jooboo,
Totally disagree with the network tv having the advantage over UFC. Dana is laughing his ass off guaranteed. I wont be surprised if the Spike replay of Silva/Liddell has a solid rating
June 1st, 2008 at 12:07 am
can a brother get a screengrab of Thompson as he was yelling at the ref that the stoppage was BS?
Suspiciously when the ref is talking to Thompson the audio suddenly cuts out.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:10 am
But, JVelez, more people are going to talk about this fight the next couple days than any one UFC fight in the days after that fight. That has to count for something. If the show wasn’t a success in terms of Kimbo knocking a dudes head off or quality compared to UFC, it likely will be successful in bringing new attention to MMA and came away with a lot of different marketing angles for future fights.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:10 am
Jooboo, here is what you fail to take into consideration. A) UFC has regular showings on Spike. If anything, the casual fan who watched this show will want to see more and watch it on Spike. B) Elite is shown on Showtime. A lot of people don’t have Showtime. C) Casual fans will not order a PPV without big names. No way Slice sells a PPV.
Dana and UFC got a great laugh at this production. It smells like XFL to me. It’ll be done in two years.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:11 am
@monkey: I think that’s because he was cursing. they probably have a 2-3 second window to “bleep” that shit out.
It happened a couple times earlier, I noticed.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:14 am
I could care less about EliteXC as a company going out of business if it meant Gus Johnson on UFC and no Joe Rogan…
June 1st, 2008 at 12:16 am
CBS and Showtime have the option to buy shares of Elite XC, so if the ratings are good, it would be a long-term relationship.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:17 am
Rogan said he would love to call a Kimbo fight. How about we trade Rogan and cash considerations for Gus Johnson.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:18 am
Joboo,
I thought it was great that Shamrock did the MMA101 before anything, it shows what MMA is about. But thats about it. Elite banked their money on Kimbo and strikers. They might be slightly successful with the women but for as good as the Lawler fight was, it was nada compared to Griffin/Bonner.
BTW, I was laughing when I saw Mark “I hurt my knee as soon as I saw who Brock Lesnar was” in Baronis corner? Injury my ass….
June 1st, 2008 at 12:19 am
Tonight proves to me that the UFC is still many light years ahead of Elite XC and possibly all of Gary Shaw Inc. With as popular as MMA has been, there has to be a reason why the UFC isn’t broadcasting live on national television. Otherwise Dana White wouldn’t have let that Shaw get to the point of being on CBS.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:20 am
Most people think UFC is not on network TV because Dana does not want to give up control of the production and the announcers to whichever channel would broadcast the show.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:20 am
Dana has always been paranoid when it comes to a deal. He almost had HBO and I think he will be content with ESPN…
June 1st, 2008 at 12:21 am
Lawler and Smith don’t hold a candle to what Griffin and Bonnar did. Griffin/Bonnar might be the best reason why I love MMA now and why I’ll still love it after tonight. All I can say is, I can’t wait for WEC tomorrow night.
That said…Can we live blog it? PLEEEAAASSSEEE!!!!!!!!
June 1st, 2008 at 12:23 am
TBL,
WEC needs to right this wrong! Please liveblog it….
June 1st, 2008 at 12:24 am
Don’t make me give the puppy dog eyes
June 1st, 2008 at 12:24 am
I think CBS will get a monster rating, but Spike will get a solid rating for the Lidell/Silva match.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:24 am
i know everyone says it was fixed, and it might have been, and many of the fights sucked … but im sure that ratings will be huge. i had about 15 texts from friends who i dont think have EVER even talked to me about this sport.
no NBA games against it helped
but kimbo’s rep took a massive hit. i dont think he’s quite a fraud because he survived and didn’t lose … but he’s close. would this Thompson cat have been a top 20 heavyweight in UFC? He can take a punch, that’s for sure
June 1st, 2008 at 12:26 am
Hell, I might have to watch the Affliction PPV to erase that experience out of my brain
June 1st, 2008 at 12:28 am
Be thankful none of you guys caught YAMMA Pit fighting. It’s actually worse than Elite XC.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:28 am
TBL,
Thompson could probably be the bottom of the barrell in the UFC, and that is because the HW division sucks….
June 1st, 2008 at 12:28 am
I dont see why CBS or another network WON’T COME AFTER UFC when the ratings for this shitshow are revealed. There’s money to be made here - everyone will want in
June 1st, 2008 at 12:29 am
Yes, please watch WEC tomorrow and just compare the two shows. It’ll be 10x better than Elite.
Here’s the thing though. This show tonight will get huge numbers. They did a great job hyping it. People wanted to either A) see Kimbo fight or B) see if Kimbo was overrated. So yes, this show will get huge numbers. But if they put another show on next week or next month, the numbers would be way, way, way down.
UFC isn’t on CBS/HBO because Dana is a paranoid dink. He doesn’t want to give up control. But, I also like that it’s not on a major station. It would be watered down. Hell, look at what UFC is doing on Spike by bringing in BK, TapouT, etc.
Speaking of TapouT, anyone else think they are going to lose a lot of business in a few years but their massive attempt to place their product in every damn fight?
June 1st, 2008 at 12:29 am
Romo,
That is sad but true..
” I dont like that superman punch stuff” total blasphemy
June 1st, 2008 at 12:30 am
Well if the UFC heavyweights blow, why not just steal Kimbo from whatever he’s in now, and pump up the sideshow angle and have someone kick his ass? the destruction of kimbo slice will be a huge event
but it seems likely kimbo would take a week off and then train his ass off for 4 months before fighting again. he has no game on the ground. none.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:30 am
TBL, the same reason why boxing, wrestling and/or poker isn’t on CBS/ABC/NBC. It’s better suited for a Spike, ESPN, Versus type station.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:30 am
But a UFC deal on ESPN will be awesome. Has anyone catched the mma webshow that ESPN has? Its pretty good…
June 1st, 2008 at 12:31 am
To me, UFC comes off as brilliant in how they have grown the sport. While Elite got the big tv shot, they wound up falling short of expectations, and their most marketable fighter (Slice) looked like crap. Meanwhile UFC is using their weekly show to help market guys, build up a fan base and create a buzz around new fighters. Im pretty sure that we will see some mergers among the big organizations before we are done, but UFC will be the winner.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:31 am
Please, please, please..no UFC on ESPN.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:32 am
TBL,
Dana needs to fix the HW and Slice would not be the answer. Lesnar, if he improves will be….
June 1st, 2008 at 12:33 am
My fear is that MMA will slowly become poker. It was around for sometime, then got real hot, then start to fade out again.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:34 am
MOzatta,
You serious? Why not??? ESPN hypes the hell out of its products.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:35 am
And to think that Tito Ortiz might join Elite…..
June 1st, 2008 at 12:36 am
That is exactly why. UFC on ESPN would be a circus. It would become about advertisements, money, glitz. It would take away what MMA is; a true, balls-to-the-wall battle.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:37 am
UFC on ESPN would kill me
June 1st, 2008 at 12:40 am
From Bloody Elbow:
Just got a call from BE editor in chief Luke Thomas in Newark at the Elite SC event.
Luke got his hands on the judges scorecards and here’s how they had it scored:
All three judges scored the first round 10-9 for James Thompson.
But in the 2nd round it got weird as Bittencourt scored it 10-9 Thompson, Crosby scored it 10-8 Thompson and Colon gave it to Kimbo, 10-9.
Something rotten in Newark ladies and gentlemen.
As Luke Thomas said to me on the phone just now, “The UFC gets the best fighters they can and lets the chips fall where they may. Shaw tried to control the outcomes and it blew up in his face. And you know what, I’m glad.”
Couldn’t agree more.
We may criticize Dana White and Zuffa here at BE, but its clear they have the best product in MMA.
The difference in quality between UFC 84 and EliteXC was dramatic. UFC 84 was far and away the better event.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:44 am
I feel a lot better about the UFC. It’s the MMA promotion that I started to watch and it’s the biggest reason why I watch MMA today.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:49 am
Well, WEC starts in a few hours.
Let the healing begin……..
June 1st, 2008 at 12:52 am
But it’s all about $ and you make that by attracting eyeballs. Poker had a brief run, and in the 80s, Wrestlemania and all that junk was big. Remember Saturday night’s main event? Right now, UFC is where all the 18-32 year old males are.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:54 am
Guys, on the Sherdog radio network (remember, I’m the radio expert).. the guys have Gus Johnson on and they are critiquing his performance with him on the air. The one host called him out on his usage of “scissor sweep,” And gus took big exception. He lectured them on broadcasting, they lectured him on understanding the moves. Great give and take.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:55 am
Gus just gave himself a “solid C.”
He also defended their production when they criticized it in comparison with the UFC.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:58 am
I give Gus a C but it wasnt that bad and for hardcore MMA fans calling him out is a lil anal IMO. I think the commenting was good, just about everything else sucked…..
The MMA Blogs are livid….
June 1st, 2008 at 12:58 am
TBL, the problem though is everyone knows wrestling is fake and we expect the fun and circus. Poker is a different species all together. MMA has to be legit. The core group of fans for MMA is completely different than poker, boxing, wrestling. The minute MMA sells out and there’s a suspicion of foul play, it will lose its audience. MMA can’t afford to go for the $$ and alienate it’s target market. Not like the other sports can.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:00 am
Gus said the highlights were shown in NYC on the local news afterwards. Folks, this was a big night for MMA, like TBL, i also received many a text about this fight, from sports fans in general. Sure some fights stunk, but what saves MMA is that they keep the fights coming.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:02 am
I knew MMA hardcore fans would hate this show, but this isn’t about them, it’s above them. The sports is blowing up and the average fan doesn’t care about the technical jiu-jitsu in play. Does the average NFL fan care about zone blitz and pulling guards? Of course not.
Does the average adult entertainment fan care about.. oh wait, bad example.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:03 am
I’m a hardcore guy and Gus did a lot better than I expected. He did good for his first time out. If he can get his practice in, he could be a very good MMA announcer.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:04 am
I dont know cursed, the only two bright spots I see is a possble Lawler rematch and maybe more pub in that area to try to get MMA in NY. For me, I think Elite did MMA a disservice tonight IMO….
June 1st, 2008 at 1:07 am
It could. Poker remains hot, though - didnt they have to do something to the WSOP because of so many entrants? I think that # continues to climb on a yearly basis. I just think it became SO now - espn, newspapers columns, etc - that it watered down the ’sport.’ It went from being this cool underground ’sport’ only the cool kids knew about to an event where Norman Chad - bless his heart - is talking about it on ESPn for a few hours a day.
Without putting much thought into it at 1 am … as much as the hardcore fans on Sherdog love the sport as it is, there’s too much money to be made for someone NOT to fuck this up. after tonight’s numbers are released, it seems obvious that ESPN or one of the major networks will gamble on it. then, MMA will have no choice but to create name-brand, marketable stars with personality who can sell out arenas, score an SI cover, or grab a guest spot on Entourage.
Who do you remember from boxing in the 80s? The bad-asses: Tyson, Leonard, etc. In the 90s it became guys like Holyfield and Lennox Lewis, who were wholly uninteresting (Holyfield because he was old and could barely speak thanks to brain damage). Name a bad-ass, in-his-prime boxer who the general public is aware of? Other than Oscar de la Hoya … what compelling boxer could you put on the cover of SI right now? What compelling boxer could garner a 10-minute feature on Sportscenter? Who is the zeitgeisty boxer that bloggers can’t stop writing about?
(obviously the boxing fans have free reign to jump down my throat and rattle off a bunch of guys who are probably fantastic boxers. by all means …)
June 1st, 2008 at 1:08 am
Maybe I’m spoiled because I watch UFC, but during the entire Lawler fight I kept thinking..”if this was UFC, it’d be done by now.” Lawler and Smith are both average fighters. Smith left his entire body exposed the entire fight. Lawler was flopping his arms around and showed suspect defense. Again, maybe I’m spoiled and judging these guys too hard, but even that fight was average for me.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:09 am
@TBL
That said, you have a lot to learn.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:11 am
The Cung Lee/Shamrock fight was an entertaining fight, let’s not make it seem like everything elite xc does is awful.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:11 am
Kimbo is the “display” story on yahoo.com
June 1st, 2008 at 1:13 am
TBL, that’s just my point. Poker is watered down, boxing is watered down (Mayweather, Oscar, Mosley, Mayorga, Tito, Ward, Gotti could have been mainstream)and I fear that with UFC, WEC, Elite, Pride that MMA will become watered down. The problem with boxing (other than it being fixed, lack of a notable heavyweight) is that there isn’t a true champ. But tell me this. Who is the MMA champ? With so many promotions it’s hard for a casual fan to know who’s who. Hell, I watch MMA regularly and I still have a hard time knowing a lot of the fighters. If MMA goes mainstream (ESPN/NBC/ABC/etc) it will kill the sport.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:13 am
But with the Lawler fight, I think that cleveland’s argument would work with that fight. Even if it was sloppy, it had somewhat of an essence of total MMA and could be something to build on. Even if the Hardcores (which I consider myself to be)register that as average….
June 1st, 2008 at 1:15 am
Miguel Cotto
June 1st, 2008 at 1:15 am
Mozatta, not having a universal champion is a legitimate beef with boxing and soon to be MMA. But, I contend that appeal right now doesn’t necessarily begin and end with the champions. It’s with the entertainers. The average person on the street couldn’t pick Anderson Silva out of a lineup with other random Brazilians.. yes he’s the best PxP. This sport might not need champions to carry them. Look at the buy rates for Tito.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:16 am
Just got home from watching the fight with a bunch a people who don’t usually care about MMA, and they were totally into the last two fights. They didn’t even get the
fixed angleseemingly untimely stoppage, and they want to definitely see Kimbo fight again. If I’m Gary Shaw, I’m calling this a success.If all this eventually leads to Brock Lesnar vs. Kimbo, I will be happy like a little schoolgirl.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:18 am
Clown, i played your role in the other post… I was killing tonight. You would have been proud.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:21 am
A) Lesnar is under contract with UFC for I think 2-3 more fights
B) Lesnar/Slice would ruin Elite if they hope to use Kimbo as their poster boy.
Cursed, to draw casual fans in, don’t you want universal names? Don’t you want a champ or big name you can use. If I am a newbie I see WEC on every week, then I see UFC every week. I get confused. How do I keep track of my fighter? What’s the difference between the two. And now what’s this Pride thing people are talking about. Through that in with “why is everyone wearing TapouT gear?”
June 1st, 2008 at 1:21 am
you always make me proud, sportsboy.
I wish I had any interest whatsoever in going through a 480 comment post. CRM, that’s truly a post that you can put on a resume
or your application to starbucks.June 1st, 2008 at 1:26 am
All I can say is, I really hope there is a live blog tomorrow night. I like the WEC a lot. They put on great events. Plus, a friend of mine is fighting tomorrow night, so I’m really excited for him.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:34 am
I assume Lesnar and Slice will never cross paths.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:35 am
Unless they attend the same social engagement.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:43 am
I’ll also be watching WEC tomorrow, but let’s face it, Kimbo will be generating more pop than Faber/Pulver. Sad for the diehards, but that’s just the way it is. And let’s not act like the UFC didn’t embrace that mentality during the entire Ortiz era, or when they brought back Royce Gracie for the Hughes fight.
There’s just no way tonight was bad for the sport. I just don’t get the argument.
June 1st, 2008 at 3:28 am
wow. Just got in from the night (3:30 a.m……drunk and w/o poon) and had to check me some TBL for a recap……good work boys. Enjoyed jumping in and seeing what the crew had to say…..good job tonight crm
June 1st, 2008 at 7:11 am
The guy that danced with him last Cinco de Mayo … Pretty Boy Floyd.
June 1st, 2008 at 8:01 am
I started off watching the CBS fights but turned over to Silva/Liddell and never turned back.
June 1st, 2008 at 9:14 am
@TBL: I think the “zeitgeisty boxer” is Cuban immigrant Yuriorkis Gamboa.
He’s fantastic.
June 1st, 2008 at 9:17 am
After watching that fight again: Gamboa’s the size of Mayweather with the mojo of Tyson. Oh, and he can be technical, too.
He’s the polar opposite of Kimbo, and better for it.