NBA All-Star Game: Jolly Good Show
NBA February 18th. 2008, 11:04am
Incessant dunks and an offensive orgy – what’s not to love about millionaires effectively playing creative streetball? We love the NBA All-Star game, and there’s no question that aesthetically, it destroys the MLB All-Star game and the Pro Bowl (except for last night’s jerseys). Sure, Allen Iverson was beyond sloppy, and Dirk was horrendous, but three positive themes seemed to emerge last night:
* Chris Paul’s “official” NBA baptism
* LeBron James re-establishing himself as the best player in the NBA
* Brandon Roy, welcome to the league
Paul and Roy have yet to make their playoff debuts, and because so few people pay attention to the NBA regular-season (except for those that read Ballin’), if you’re not a post-season presence, you’re off the map. Although Doug Collins compared Paul to Isiah Thomas, why not Allen Iverson? AI, who is probably at the 3 p.m. mark on his NBA career, was a turnover machine in the first half, and the team rallied behind Paul in the fourth quarter. Roy, who should have been taking all of the shots that Dirk was bricking, seemed effortless in everything that he did, and that’s why we’re salivating over the Roy-Oden combo next year.
Other musings from our sofa (we’ll do a dunk contest post later):
* Dirk was awful, and looked like he would have rather been drinking with Steve Nash
* The All-Star game is no place for Yao, really
* Anyone else think once Amare dunked on Dwight Howard (Albert’s call: “Oh, and a facial on Dwight Howard), Superman kind of … disappeared?
* Ray Allen – no words necessary
* LeBron is still only twenty-frickin’-three, and maybe if we squeeze it in here, nobody will see it and get angry: Better than Jordan at this age
182 Responses to “NBA All-Star Game: Jolly Good Show”
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February 18th, 2008 at 11:09 AM
TBL-show me where Amare owned my man last night.
look at this mix and see how many times my boy crushed Amare last night
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-dkq2u1Ltco
February 18th, 2008 at 11:09 AM
Your LeBron better than Jordan comment angers me.
Yao looked awful and he sticks out like a sore thumb at the All Star Game.
Game was decent, the most memorable one I have seen is when it was a young Kobe on the West and Jordan in his prime in the East at Madison Square Garden.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:10 AM
I look at it like this. Bron Bron can be better than Jordan was at 23, but unless he gets at least 3 rings, it doesn’t matter.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:11 AM
LeBron’s dunk was sick – but then again, that play pretty much summarized Dirk’s career. Not only did he not foul the suspect free throw shooter (LeBron), he didn’t even go for the shot block. The game was on the line and he lets LeBron dunk on him? Embarrassing.You think Kobe let’s that happen?
Also, not sure LeBron “re-establishing” himself as the best player in the game. That’s pretty hard to do in an all-star game, especially one without the best player in the game (Kobe). Had to do it, sorry.
Interesting stat of the day. LeBron is becoming the chucker of all-star games! 22 shots this year, 21 last year, 20 the year before. Nobody comes close.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:11 AM
one dunk- this is it by amare
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NC_9EbB639U
look at my previous link and look at how many times Dwight dunked on him
February 18th, 2008 at 11:12 AM
He is Better than Jordan at this age. Thank you.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:13 AM
Btw, anyone know how to post a picture to your profile, so it appears when you post a comment? I know this a stupid question, but I can’t figure it out.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Dwight wasn’t dunking ON Amare … he simply beat him on a few plays. But when Howard tried to play defense on Amare, he got served
February 18th, 2008 at 11:16 AM
keep hating TBl. god forbid you show love to the best big man in the league. but if Dwight was on the Knicks, every other post would be of him. you are something else TBL.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Irish, your boy won the dunk contest, leave it at that.
Plus, that Superman throw down (it was not a dunk) was pretty sick, but the best one was the one he bounced off the backboard to himself and dunked.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:18 AM
served in a game where it is known that no one plays defense
whats next TBL-dwight won the dunk contest because he is taller
February 18th, 2008 at 11:19 AM
cbh, A-B conversation LOL
how bout Gmason this weekend huh
February 18th, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Irishmafia seems a bit more agitated today than usual.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:21 AM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3SXSRlyR8bU
February 18th, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Dirk is soft, always has been, always will be. In my opinion most foreign players are soft, good players, but soft. There is something about playing on the street against older guys that beat your ass that makes american players tougher. And yes, Lebron is the man.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:21 AM
funny quin funny. year ago though
February 18th, 2008 at 11:22 AM
I’m not an avid NBA guy, but did I miss something? Did Lebron really have to “re-establish” himself as the best player? After last season’s playoff, when did he lose that tag?
February 18th, 2008 at 11:24 AM
When he shot 35% in the finals and his team got swept, showing just how inferior the East is.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:24 AM
Didn’t know you were a UNCW fan Irish
February 18th, 2008 at 11:24 AM
Howard was a monster, had a good game, and i’m a big fan
i actually would love to see him and howard go at it in a 7-game series
February 18th, 2008 at 11:25 AM
memphis still undefeated cbh
February 18th, 2008 at 11:27 AM
1. Lebron is the king. He owned that game.
2. Chris Bosh played like a little girl. Softest “star” in the league. He blew.
3. Chris Paul is already better than Iverson ever was.
4. I was at the Dunk Contest. Gerald Green was robbed. Dwight’s best dunk wasn’t a, um, dunk.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:27 AM
No Kobe… no KG… and no one passing to Yao.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
February 18th, 2008 at 11:29 AM
Yao was passed the ball, he just had a case of butter fingers every single time it was passed to him.
Good for Memphis, ask the New England Patriots how much an undefeated regular season means.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:29 AM
And Conference USA is no better than the CAA.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:32 AM
howards best dunk was 1) behind basket 2) the ping pong off the backboard
February 18th, 2008 at 11:35 AM
The best part about All Star weekend was the old ones on espn classic. I love seeing Jordan again with young Shaq and young Kobe. Jordan was so freaking awesome, minus that one year he played as a wizard and bricked his first six shots.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Fans getting 100% of the vote is stupid. It shouldn’t be a popularity contest.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:38 AM
Irish needs to chill
February 18th, 2008 at 11:46 AM
YYSA- howard owns Amare
February 18th, 2008 at 11:52 AM
YYSA- on your blog you got the video of Amare throwing down one dunk over Dwight. One dunk on Superman and all you fucking haters are back to saying Amare is the man again.
this site is something else with the way people hate. show love people show love when it is due
February 18th, 2008 at 11:52 AM
David Stern should find a way to get Dwight and LeBron on the same team. I know it’ll never happen, but oh the possibilities …
February 18th, 2008 at 11:57 AM
That would be amazing, they had great chemistry last night.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:00 PM
TBL…Kobe is still the bast Player in the NBA…but you are right he is better than Jordan at 23..Jordan also was in his 3rd NBA season at 23 LeBron his 6th…Irish..don’t worry..because I am going to say D-Howard wins a title before LeBron..and then you can have that over everyone…
February 18th, 2008 at 12:01 PM
Lebron had a brilliant game, but with Allen’s performance in the fourth, is there any doubt he should have been MVP? Nope.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Dwight Howard > Amare Stoudamire
February 18th, 2008 at 12:11 PM
@ jbriaz:
http://site.gravatar.com/
Make sure you use the same email address as your profile.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:12 PM
By the way, as a New Orleans guys, I loved seeing Chris Paul in the All-Star game. But his offensive foul late in the game really cost the West a shot at the W.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:15 PM
Dwight Howard did effectively win the layup contest on Saturday Night. George Mikan would have been proud.
Sorry Kobe-lovers. But Lebron continues, night in and night out, to prove that he is the most complete offensive player in the game. The most unstoppable play in sports right now is the Lebron fast-break. If he’s involved, it’s 2 points or a 3-point play – and not necessarily his points. If he wasn’t surrounded by the pu pu platter in Cleveland, you’d all see that by now.
But here is the most telling stat why Lebron in the best. The Cavs are 0-7 this year without him in the lineup. They are 29-16 with him in the lineup – in a year where they’ve struggled with injuries and holdouts.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:22 PM
The cavs win loss without LeBron is completely irrelevant, and should not be the reason he wins the MVP (there are many other reasons you could offer up, but that’s one is bogus). Firstly, the Cavs offense is enitrely run around LeBron – and that’s not a bad thing. But how can you expect his teammates to completely implement a new offense with that obvious void when he’s not there.
When Kobe has missed games with the Lakers (they don’t do well either), but, there’s more of a fluid offense that thrives on passing instituted there in the first place. Their offense is no solely based on kobe driving and kicking, or running high screen and roll.
So like I said, those win/loss statistics are not relevant in an MVP argument, even though they’re often used as a crutch. If that was the case, than the MVP would only go to solid team’s who’s best player missed games that were ultimately lossed. And, ummm…Jordan’s Bulls won 55 games without him in 93… so therefore, he obviously wasnt as valuable right?!
February 18th, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Cleveland sans LeBron: Ilgauskas, Hughes, Gooden, Gibson, Varejao, Snow, Marshall.
L.A. sans Kobe: Gasol, Fisher, Bynum when healthy, Odom, Vlad Rad, Vujacic, Farmar.
Now, which team are you taking without the star?
And here’s this: Swap Kobe for LeBron, and which team’s better?
February 18th, 2008 at 12:37 PM
roman + 1 buddy. dwight howard won the lay up contest CLEVEROCK you are funny
Dwight howard > Kevin Garnett and Amare
KOBE > Lebron
when will that debate end, Lebron wont win a title ever. The only way he will is if him and Dwight Howard get on a team together. that sure as hell wont happen
February 18th, 2008 at 12:38 PM
Rockabye, what point are you trying to make? We all know the Lakers are now (with Gasol) one of the most talented teams in the league.
Also, the lakers would gladly take Varejao over Odom…Vlad Rad’s been a disappointment until recently, Vujacic was lost until this season. Let’s not make it seem like the Lakers trot out 8 all-stars. Does anyone remember how bad Kobe’s supporting cast was over the past three years?
February 18th, 2008 at 12:38 PM
I’ll C my way into you saying Dwight Howard is already better than Kevin Garnett.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:40 PM
also, Ray Allen should of won the MVP last night. I didnt say Dwight Howard, Ray Allen was the MVP for the 2008 All star game.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:41 PM
The Lakers also had Smush Parker and Kwame Brown playing considerable roles. Both will be out of the league in 3 years.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:42 PM
so will eric snow and donyell marshall. those guys are bums who play roles, try to at least
February 18th, 2008 at 12:43 PM
I had no problem with LeBron winning MVP – although Nick’s right, the fan vote is embarrassing. Let’s do ESPN Nation polls to determine championships while we’re at it.
But interesting nobody else is noticing LeBron’s proclivity for shot-taking… like I said, 21 shots, 20, then 22 this year. He’s the AI of all-star games. What happened to “most unselfish person in the western world?” (I think I just quoted myself)
February 18th, 2008 at 12:45 PM
if it wasnt for Dwight Howard, Lebron would NOT of won the All star game MVP. how many assists did he throw to howard? half
February 18th, 2008 at 12:45 PM
Irish, Eric Snow has played a huge role on the Cavaliers in the last two post-season. Seriously, he was their lock down defender, and infinitely more valuable than freaking Smush Parkers and Kwame Brown.
And Donyell was a good signing at the time. It’s not the Cavaliers fault he gained thirty pounds and his one defining skill – three point shooting – went right out the window.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:47 PM
Assists in general are an overrated statistic (as I’ve chronicled in the past), but in an all-star game, they are ridiculous. Not only can you pass to a guy and he can dribble and take 3 steps, but in an all-star game, he can go from half court to the basket and the feeder gets an assist.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:47 PM
eric snow is a has been who hasnt been good since the 76ers. Smush is way better than snow, fuck even sebastian telfair is better than snow.
Ferry needs to get fired and once you have a real GM that knows what he is doing
February 18th, 2008 at 12:50 PM
@ YYSA- if your boy Amare is such a dominant big man, then why in the world would they bring in Shaq to take control of the middle. Amare wishes he had the potential that Dwight Howard brings to the table.
i need to get on Dwight Howards payroll for all this talk
February 18th, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Wow Irish you couldn’t be more wrong. Don’t let Snow’s inability to make a layup cloud your judgment. Snow was a big time defender for the Cavaliers, and their defense was they’re strongpoint. He was their rock (i’m quoting Mike Brown). He played a significant role, trust me.
Smush on the other hand is a turnover fest on offense, takes bad shots, and no basketball IQ, defense wasn’t in his vocabulary (along with most nouns and commonplace verbs).
February 18th, 2008 at 12:54 PM
and I just typed “they’re” as opposed to “their”…typing too fast kills grammar and syntax!
February 18th, 2008 at 12:55 PM
CursedCleveland: You are insane to insinuate that a +13 record with/-7 record without is irrelevant. You’re saying that Lebron isn’t as valuable as the records suggest because the offense is based around him? That’s more of an argument that he’s the MVP. Who else on that team would you base the offense around? Ira Newble? Larry “can’t make an open jumper” Hughes? You’ve got to be kidding. When you have the best player in the game, you work the offense around him. And if they aren’t doing that in LA, what does that say about Kobe as a playmaker for his teammates?
Ever? Really? At the age of 23, you can already tell that over the next 15 or so seasons, Lebron won’t win a championship? Can I take you to Vegas with me?
February 18th, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Cleverock-not on the CAVS he sure as hell wont. or at least as long as DAnny Ferry is GM how bout that
cursed-who cares about grammar, your coach needs to realize that boobie is a starter
February 18th, 2008 at 12:58 PM
I didn’t say “LeBron isn’t as valuable as the records suggest because the offense is based around him,” the straw man might have made that point.
I said specifically, it can’t be used as an end-all crutch. If it could, than guys like Tim Duncan and Michael Jordan can’t win MVP’s because they’re teams are too good. So if LeBron gets Dwight Howard in 3 years, then he’s disqualified from MVP voting right? B/c they’re win/loss without him won’t be nearly as unimpressive right?
February 18th, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Irish, I agree.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:01 PM
man lebron has a better chance of being on the same team as Carmelo before Dwight. Orlando will never give up howard. But honestly do you blame them. Lebron and howard together is a strong combo. But honestly i would rather take Josh Howard than Lebron. Josh howard is a better all around player than Lebron. Howard and Howard those would be the days
February 18th, 2008 at 1:01 PM
And, by that same argument Cleverock, the star has to miss games or the voting can’t be influenced by those critical win/loss numbers. (As if 7 games is a good sampling). If LeBron missed 82 games, the cavs would have an offense that doens’t involve around lebron, they’d actually feed the post (Z could score close to 20 a night, and perhaps Hughes could find his groove) – Ok the last part of that was obviously a lie.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:01 PM
It’s not a crutch. The strongest argument against Lebron as MVP is that the Cavs are 29-23 and wouldn’t even be in the playoffs in the West. But when you take a closer look at the circumstances surrounding the team this year, you see clearly that Lebron is the most impactful player in the league. The stat, in that respect, is telling – very much so. And to discount it as “irrelevant” is short-sighted.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:02 PM
who has a stronger value on there team: Lebron or Howard?
February 18th, 2008 at 1:07 PM
OK so let’s officialy set the rubric for winning a “Most Valuable Player,” then we can be done with the debating forever.
1) Team must be around the 40-49 win mark (teams with 50 or more are too good and thus, one player’s role is diminished in having that impact)
2) Best player must miss 5-10 games, and said team must lose 90 percent or more of those games.
3) The team also must also rely on one player significantly more than the rest. (If the team utilized a fluid offense with many options, then best player is disqualified b/c his stats won’t look as sexy)
February 18th, 2008 at 1:08 PM
a lot of arguments here- people you need to enjoy the day off, not fight. anyone else think the uniforms were some of the ugliest uni’s in some time?
February 18th, 2008 at 1:08 PM
cursed-dwight has never missed a game so it looks like we will continue our debate
February 18th, 2008 at 1:09 PM
no fighting here neo. just debates. your lucky if you got the day off.
those uni’s were hideous for the all star game
February 18th, 2008 at 1:11 PM
Yep Irish, you have to miss games or else you can’t unearth the stat about win/losses w/o given player. Sorry dude, here’s to a semi sprained ankle next year!
Also, Kobe (by the rubric) should have won MVP in 05. 35 PPG and first team all-NBA defense. 45 wins, and would have been about 10 without him. Nearly knocked off Suns in first round as well. Oh shit, he only missed two games that year.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:13 PM
Those uniforms were atrocious. Isn’t it the goal of the NBA to get people to WANT to buy the uniforms.
The unis in Jordan’s last year were AWESOME.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:14 PM
anyone see Jordans NEW line of shoes? now those are a work of art
February 18th, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Sorry irish, i didn’t – I was blinded by LeBron’s annual all-star game shot chucking!
February 18th, 2008 at 1:18 PM
I kind of liked it when they just wore their actual jersesys, like MLB does.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:18 PM
yeah cursed he made it a point during boobies three point contest. he said his show is sunday night when talking to the camera. I went to high school in Ohio and saw lebron in high school when they wre charging 50 bucks a ticket in Akron. i love the talent Lebron has but i just wish cavs fans would come to the realization that they need help to win a title.shit so do my magic
February 18th, 2008 at 1:35 PM
I watch the Magic a lot. Dwight Howard is a monster but his weaknesses are: too many of his FGs are dunks and he can’t make free throws. When he can hit the short J (maybe 8ft and in) and hit 70% or better from the line, the Magic will seriously challenge with their current cast.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:38 PM
too many of his FG’s are dunks because he cannot be stopped. serioulsy who has the most dunks in the past two years than anyone combined? D howard. there is no other big man in the league that can stop him one on one. Yeah i agree his ONE weakness is free throws. But he can at least get his own rebound and dunk it home.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:46 PM
Howard is a beast. But Van Gundy is right–he needs to focus on the defensive end night in night out (as does Lebron). When he’s lazy he gets cheap fouls and has to sit, which kills the Magic. And they need a PG.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:49 PM
quin, i was hoping they would try to pull something off before the deadline but doesnt look like the Magic will. i agree with you 100% on your comment and wish you would comment more in ballin. you make good points
February 18th, 2008 at 2:10 PM
Please set all hyperbole to the side if you want your argument to be taken seriously. You said the stat was “irrevelant.” It isn’t. Now you’re claiming that I said it was the “end all, be all.” I didn’t.
Until you can make a rationale argument without resorting to exaggerations, I see no reason to take you seriously.
February 18th, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Cleverock, I could care less if you take my arguments seriously. I’m pretty confident with how I’m expressed my opinion. I said that the plus/minus is unfairly skewed towards teams that scheme one-dimensional offensively. The Cavs do that. If they played more of a team game, than that would lessen the impact of LeBron not being there. That would of course be stupid, because the goal is to win games, and they’ve been doing that.
But you’ve failed to address my ultimate point – that under your logic, a player on a great team can’t win an MVP. Because, again, his win/loss wouldn’t be nearly as impactful without him.
And no, I’m not setting hyperbole aside. Hyperbole can be funny, ironic, or entertaining. Nobody wants to read people arguing over plus-minus figures for pages on end (except John Hollinger and Nick P). Oh and one more thing, sometimes hyperbole can be used to explain how crazy someone else’s argument is.
February 18th, 2008 at 2:37 PM
You continue to assert that I actually said that. I didn’t. You can’t simply attribute an over-the-top statement to me so that you can discredit my point. That tactic is so often used in arguments as a distraction when someone has no real point to make.
You, on the other hand, said the statistic in Lebron’s case was “irrelevant.” That’s an actual you statement you made. Clearly, it’s not irrelevant.
The fact is that there are no “one size fits all” arguments to an MVP debate. Each candidate will have positives and negatives. Lebron’s positives are related to his impact on his team and on a game. That statistic is clearly indicative of his importance to the team. His fourth quarter numbers and their positive relationship to the Cavs’ comeback victories this year are indicative of his impact on the game. His overall numbers are indicative of his all-around playmaking ability. And then, of course, there are intangibles that can only be considered by looking outside the numbers: leadership, poise, defense etc. These are all categories where Lebron has shown marked improvement, and if you’ve watched the games, superiority.
Lebron’s biggest negative? He plays on a team that’s 29-23. People keep calling Kevin Garnett the MVP because his team has the best record in the league. That’s all well and good. But I can’t recall Garnett being all that dominating this year. He’s played great defense, rebounds well, and puts up good numbers. He’s always done that – even in the shitty years with the Timberwolves. What makes this year any different? Oh, yeah, he plays with two All Stars, who combined make that team a winning team.
The statistic is not the “end all be all.” But it’s important to note and consider for anyone that wants to discount Lebron’s MVP candidacy based on his team’s rather mediocre record.
February 18th, 2008 at 2:44 PM
what am i missing fellas.
Kevin Garnett took the worst team to the best team in the league that is why he is brought up CLEVEROCK. Lebron wont win the MVP so just forget about that for right now. you really need to be worrying about how you are going to get home court for the first round of the playoffs
dwight howard for MVP
February 18th, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Kevin Garnett joined an already re-hauled team that tanked the second half of last season to get a higher draft pick. I would have loved to have added a shooter like Ray Allen to the Cavs, but they simply have little to no assets to offer anyone for a player of that calibar.
And Mike Brown is the one that needs to be worried about the Cavs getting home-court advantage for the first round. Since I’m not a member of the Cavs organization, I have no control over that. Instead, I can worry about less important things such as the subjective selection of a player for an award that is more or less meaningless.
February 18th, 2008 at 2:54 PM
how do you feel about the Most improved player award then? is that a meaningless award as well?
February 18th, 2008 at 2:56 PM
you are saying it is a meaningless award because LEbron wont in the MVP and your mad that Kobe will or has a better shot at winning the MVP.
just admit to me that Dwight howard has a better chance at the MVP than Lebron and we will be done
February 18th, 2008 at 2:58 PM
The MVP of the ALL star game is meaningless CLEVEROCK. there ya go
award to someone who scored on no defense yippee
February 18th, 2008 at 3:09 PM
The MVP of the All-Star is a meaningless award, but I am actually of the opinion that Ray Allen should have won.
The most-improved player award is also meaningless. There’s actually an award out there that rewards a player for vastly underachieving the previous year. If you’re entering the NBA, and you want to win an award, just tank the first two years in the league. Then, in your third year, show everyone that you’re not just some turd sitting on the bench collecting a paycheck. Then you get a cute little trophy for it. Are you hearing me Shannon Brown?
February 18th, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Guys, Cursed Cleveland is a joke and a typical non-Cleveland fan who doesn’t want to believe anything good can happen. He’s the type of guy that would boo Derek Anderson in the Browns last home game. We have tons of people like this in Cleveland. LeBron is CLEARLY a better basketball player than Kobe. You can use stats and team records and schedule strength and playoff success and more, but Eric Snow versus Smush Parker, and Kobe getting to play w/ Shaq don’t decide who is better.
LeBron is better, there are numerous reasons why. Cursed Cleveland just wants him out of Cleveland because we are supposed to lose everything.
He bashes LeBron for taking numerous shots in an All star game, but not Kobe for averaging more shots per game in REAL games (w/ a lower percentage). He’s completely compromised and still thinks the Lakers are beating the Trailblazers in playoff series and Kobe averages 81 per game.
February 18th, 2008 at 3:11 PM
cleverock look at #48 on this post. i said the same thing about Ray allen
RD- cursed is the only realistic cav fan on this site
February 18th, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Damn it for missing a good Lebron debate.
@Cursed: I don’t believe +/- on an individual game basis is worth anything. It’s too easy for a star player with a shitty backup to have an inflated +/- statistic. And guys like Lebron, Kobe, and Howard all play 40ish minutes a night, so is the 8 minute sample really indicative of anything at all? I think not.
Win/Loss record with and sans player X does show how valuable a player is to his own team. The fact that the Cavs went 0-7 without him playing some really bad teams including Charlotte, Seattle, Washington, and Milwaukee does mean *something* in the MVP debate.
However, I don’t feel Lebron can miss any more games, maybe 2 more, and hope to win the MVP. It does say something for a player to be on the court and contributing as much as possible from a total value-add perspective. That being said, if Lebron misses less than 10 games, he’s a shoo-in, no-questions-asked MVP.
If he misses more than 10 games, the MVP is easily Chris Paul (assuming he doesn’t miss games). He’s having arguably one of the best point-guard seasons ever (Yes, better than Nash ever did).
February 18th, 2008 at 3:12 PM
rd- i will debate on end Kobe vs Lebron. You need rings in my debate RD, because talk is cheap. Kobe will win the MVP this year, do i really have to find the youtube of Lebron saying Kobe is the best in the game over All star weekend
LEBRON ADMITTED THIS WEEKEND THAT KOBE IS THE BEST IN THE GAME RIGHT NOW
February 18th, 2008 at 3:16 PM
Lebron admitted this weekend when they were interviewing him during the All star weekend
He admitted kobe is better and you Lebron fans are lucky i cant find the video to put this stupid ass debate to rest ill find it to shut you cavs fans up
February 18th, 2008 at 3:17 PM
LeBron is extremely humble. Its a trait worth having.
This is why Darko should have gone 1st in 2003 draft. Us Clevelanders would finally have a ring.
Moron.
February 18th, 2008 at 3:20 PM
glad i didnt go into work today and get dragged into this shit.
February 18th, 2008 at 3:22 PM
yeah because your boy sucks Spencer lol
smoke one for me right now spence
February 18th, 2008 at 3:24 PM
RD- are you saying Dwight isnt humble? if lebron got called out by his coach, he needs to for his lack of d, do you think he would of acted as professional as Dwight did. no way i think
February 18th, 2008 at 3:26 PM
lebron knows kobe is the best in the game. someone please find that video for me of him saying Kobe is the man so we dont have to hear this stupid debate anymore. it was the past weekend on TNT or ESPN when he admitted kobe is the best player.
February 18th, 2008 at 3:27 PM
I think the point is you’ll never see Lebron in a parking lot demanding Ferry trade for some better players, although far worse players (Pierce, Kobe, JO) with far better teammates have done exactly the same thing.
February 18th, 2008 at 3:33 PM
It was great when Craig Sager insinuated the obvious right to Dwight Howard’s face, that LeBron is better than him. Too bad even the man the myth the legend Doug Collins just said LBJ was the MVP, and didn’t state that he is clearly the best player in the game.
February 18th, 2008 at 3:38 PM
RD- key word is insinuate which means hint towards the fact. Craig sager cant even dress.
February 18th, 2008 at 3:45 PM
So do you Cavs fans not acknowledge last year’s finals? The “best player in the game” doesn’t choke when it counts.
February 18th, 2008 at 3:52 PM
You put Jordan w/ that roster and the Cavs are not the defending champs. Everybody thinks Kobe is “responsible” for 3 rings. 1 elite player is not going to beat the best team in the game w/ only a few guys anybody even considers as “average.” Z, Gibson (just a rookie set shooter last year) and Varejao (non-starter) are all above average players IMO, but none are Pippen, none sure as shit are the big diesel. Look at Garnett with Minnesota throughout his career, LBJ would definitely have had better records with his supporting casts, LeBron is the best player in the game. This was a 17-win team pre-LeBron, and they have added mostly awful players (Marshall, Newble, DJ, Hughes). SEVENTEEN!!! They are 0-7 without LeBron (very relevant) and lost in blowouts to dogshit teams. Open your eyes guys. As I’ve said this before, the Cavs fans on this blog (not in general) are very realistic. We do not feel we are 1 of the top 5 teams in the NBA even. We do feel however LeBron is in the top 1 as far as individual players are concerned.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:04 PM
Name me the last player considered to be the best in the NBA who didn’t have a ring.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:06 PM
+10 quin on the #102 post
February 18th, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Name the last great player whose career was over at the age of 23. His isn’t either.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Michael Jordan was the best player in the game before he won his first ring, too. Same with Shaq.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:09 PM
oh he was was he nick p. try again. try isiah thomas and those boys and Larry Bird and Magic johnson
keep trying nick
February 18th, 2008 at 4:10 PM
haha yeah I’m sure Isiah was ever considered to be better than MJ. When did you start smoking crack, man.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Ridiculous. What’s he supposed to do? Be a jackass and get a “GOAT” tatoo?
I bet if you ask who the best player in the game was today, he’d say Lebron. Who wants to be the self-centered asshole to claim to be the best? (Sit down Terrell Owens).
February 18th, 2008 at 4:11 PM
you show your age nick p that is all i will say to you and your pointless arguments. where is your by cursed at, at least he knows what he is talkign about
February 18th, 2008 at 4:12 PM
And he may at one point be the best. But not yet. To do that, you must win a ring. That’s just the way the game of basketball is. Jordan wasn’t the best in the league when he was losing to Detroit in the Eastern Finals. Lebron calls Kobe the best for a reason. Jordan once referred to Magic and Larry as the best. Then he beat them, won titles, and proved he was the best. Lebron has to do the same thing to be considered the best in the sport.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:13 PM
I meant to say that if you asked Kobe who the best player in the NBA was today, he’d say Lebron.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Isiah was a fine point guard, but from the time Jordan averaged 37-5-5 with 3 steals and 2 blocks, won the scoring title, and was named Defensive Player of the Year, he was the best player in the game. I believe that was 1987. This isn’t even a debate.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:13 PM
cleverock- KOBE is the best in the game and you are hearing it from the biggest Dwight howard homer there is
February 18th, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Kobe would never say Lebron is the best. That might be the dumbest statement I’ve ever read.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Kobe = 3X greater than Darko, but infinityX greater than LeBron
Horry = 2.333X greater than Kobe.
You guys are being ridiculous disregarding the other 9 players on the court. Take it to the extreme, if Jordan was playing with 11 other 7 year old girls, and couldn’t win a title, would he be dogshit too?
So what your saying is, Steve Nash is worse than Avery Johnson?
Watch these guys play, and decide who is better, LeBron’s greatness is not tempered/determined by Eric Snow, Donyell Marshall, Tim Duncan, Gregg Popovich etc.
If LeBron played with Shaq in his prime for anymore than 3 years, he’d have more rings than Kobe, its that ez.
PWN.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:15 PM
Lebron has to do the same thing to be considered the best in the sport.
couldnt of said it any better quin
February 18th, 2008 at 4:15 PM
When Kobe wins a ring sans Shaq, then tell me that Lebron is disqualified for not having a ring yet.
Hell, I’ll make it even easier. When Kobe makes it out of the first round sans Shaq, tell me that Lebron is disqualified for not having the most dominating 7-footer ever carry him to a championship.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Magic and Bird BROUGHT THE NBA BACK into the cultural mainstream. They were considered the two best for the decade of the 80s.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Kenny Smith is better than Steve Nash twice over.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:17 PM
cleverock i will sure do that this year when the Lakers win the title
funny thing is, and TBL will vouch for me, i called the lakers in the finals before they even got Gasol
February 18th, 2008 at 4:17 PM
Well, you might be right about that one. Kobe is the kind of self-centered arrogant prick to declare himself the best.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:17 PM
@irish: Why don’t you and Quin get a room? We don’t need to see you virtually make out with the guy to know that you agree with what he says.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Steve Nash isn’t considered the best player in the NBA.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Fabricio Oberto > Kevin Garnett.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:18 PM
And your predictions is still just that… a prediction. Don’t count your chickens just yet there buddy.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:19 PM
BJ Armstrong and Craig Hodges > Steve Nash
February 18th, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Judd Buechler > Charles Barkley
February 18th, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Udonis Haslem > Dirk Nowitzki
February 18th, 2008 at 4:20 PM
Jason Williams > John Stockton
February 18th, 2008 at 4:21 PM
Are you CAVS fans just fuckin retarded? We are talking about the best player in the game. You can’t name one player that was league wide considered the best player BEFORE he won a title. That’s the point. But whatever. You guys have the best player in the league, AND ZERO TITLES. Not sure how that works?
February 18th, 2008 at 4:22 PM
Udonis Haslem >>>>>>>> Karl Malone.
HE’S GOT A RING!!!! Karl Malone couldn’t even ride Shaq’s coattails to a ring like someone else I know.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:24 PM
cavs fans keep dreaming
your boy won his only MVP award this year at a game where no defense is played.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:28 PM
“Not sure how that works?”
Um ok you might not be a basketball fan but I’ll explain it:
Eric Snow, Damon Jones, David Wesley, Z, Varejao, Gooden, Gibson, Donyell Marshall, Larry Hughes, Pavlovic, Mike Brown VERSUS Ginobli, Parker, Oberto, Horry, Finley, Popovich, Barry, Vaughn, Bowen, and I’m leaving out some on both teams.
Funny that 4 game sweep wasn’t just 4 games of 1 on 1 between LeBron vs. Tim Duncan. WHOD HAVE THUNK IT? Oh wait Duncan didn’t even get the MVP award?????
February 18th, 2008 at 4:28 PM
nick p do some homework and learn a few things from cursed. maybe you can go over to his house and discuss fundementals of the game.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:30 PM
rd- thats because Manu was too busy destroying Lebron in that finals
February 18th, 2008 at 4:30 PM
He shot 35%.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:30 PM
2 people on this board actually purchased and watch the NBA League Pass I’m assuming. Cursed is not one of them. I’d rather watch Memphis v. Sacramento then some awful college game or reality TV. Its clear some people here didn’t even watch the finals last year (ratings were awful) and those games were free on national TV.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:32 PM
So he played well and they won? Was that the one they showed in Cleveland?
February 18th, 2008 at 4:33 PM
who shot 35 %?
February 18th, 2008 at 4:35 PM
The Darko of today >>>>>>>> Michael Jordan in 1990
February 18th, 2008 at 4:35 PM
He was awesome in that Game 4 when he went 10-30 from the field, 2-6 from the line, and had 6 TO. I bet all you Cavs fans were saying he was the best after that.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:37 PM
So Duncan, Parker and Ginobli could have swapped teams with LeBron and any one of them could have lead that Cavs roster to a series win over the Spurs? Ginobli >>>>>>>> LeBron James!!!
February 18th, 2008 at 4:37 PM
Or Game 1 when he was 4-16 for 14 pts and 6 TO.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:37 PM
CAVS fans think Lebron is staying in Cleveland for his entire career as well. if he wants to win a ring, he will leave Cleveland if he is smart.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:39 PM
cavs fans are the first ones on here if he scores over 30 and his team still loses. lol
February 18th, 2008 at 4:39 PM
So why aren’t all of you saying Wade is a better basketball player than LeBron??? He’s the only guy that’s been better than Shaq on a team that won a ring.
Wade >>>> LeBron (but not Kobe)?
February 18th, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Did you watch Game Seven against Detroit? Good thing he had (good) teammates that game when he was 3 of 11 from the field. You Cavs fans have selective memories.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:40 PM
Cuz no one cares who is the second best.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:44 PM
February 18th, 2008 at 4:44 PM
Actually, most Cavs’ fans don’t think that he’s staying his entire career. We hope he will, but given the rampant raping of Cleveland by free agency in just about every sport, we simply assume he’ll leave.
What I don’t get is all the Cleveland and Lebron haters. Seriously, if they are so harmless and can’t win anything (ever, apparently), then why waste your breath? Why obsess over a city, a team and a player that suck? I don’t get it.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:44 PM
Sort of like how the Pistons shut Kobe down in the Finals in 2004? Playing alongside a still-in-his-prime-Shaq and Karl Malone (who still had something left), Kobe proceeded to clutch his way to 33.7% from the floor in the 4 losses. In that series, with everything on the line and 3 rings on his fingers, he showed the world that he was the BEST in THE L.
See how putting the entire crux of your argument on one playoff series can blow up in your face?
Remember this: The next time Kobe wins a playoff series without Shaq on his roster will be the first time.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:45 PM
Lebron doesnt even have a consistent jumper yet. Will he ever. how long does it take someone to find there shot. of course he can get to the basket, Magic johnson go to the basket as well because he was a bigger ball handler. Lebron cannot play defense yet. Kobe has been on how many ALL NBA defensive teams..thats right LEbron has been on none
call me when Lebron has a jumper
February 18th, 2008 at 4:46 PM
Well, no one watched Game Seven, because the Cavs knocked out the over-hyped Pistons in 6 games.
But most people saw Game 5, in which Lebron scored 48 points, including the last 25 points in route to a classic victor over the Pistons in the Palace. God, Lebron haters have such a short memory.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:48 PM
drew carey price is wrong bitch
February 18th, 2008 at 4:50 PM
That was after they had won 3 championships right? You Cavs fan’s act like Lebron is god. Kobe’s already done all this, and actually won. What was Kobe doing when he was 21? Leading the Lakers to a championship. He was putting up 25-11-7 in deciding game Game 7 against Portland. And Kobe—-at 21—-was doing it in the clutch, on his own. Shaq doesn’t play the final two minutes of games due to his shitty free throw shooting. So, yes, he CARRIED the Lakers to a championship at 21.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:52 PM
Quin: who shot 33.7% versus the Pistons?
February 18th, 2008 at 4:53 PM
That’s what I’m talking about. Anyone who is delusional enough to believe Lebron is better always throw that ONE game against Detroit at you. Let, when you remind them what he did in Games 1, 2, and 6 and the ENTIRE FINALS they don’t want to except the reality that he didn’t play well in big moments.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:54 PM
With Shaq averaging 31 and 15 on 57% FG in the same playoffs, it was Kobe who did the carrying? Sounds about right, Kobe-lover.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:56 PM
Yes, he played poorly. But he had also just won THREE CHAMPIONSHIPS IN A ROW. Lebron must win one to prove he’s better.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:57 PM
There’s more to the game than stats. If Shaq is on the bench when the game is on the line, tell me how he’s effecting the outcome?
February 18th, 2008 at 4:58 PM
And it was Kobe, at 21, who was responsible for shutting down the other team’s best player. He did it on the defensive end as well.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:59 PM
He effected the outcome by dominating the first 46 minutes. Take those minutes away and the Lakers don’t even sniff the Finals in any of those years, as the post-Shaq era in LA has well documented. That’s how he effects outcomes.
If you don’t believe that, then I don’t know what to tell you.
February 18th, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Then just answer this question directly: Can you be the best player in the league when you shoot 35% from the field and average over 5 turnovers FOR YOUR CAREER in the Finals?
February 18th, 2008 at 5:11 PM
Yes, when your Finals career is only four games.
So did Luc Longley, but no one’s crowning his ass as the greatest Australian Center of all time…. well, maybe he is.
February 18th, 2008 at 5:12 PM
I’m glancing through TBL today. Didn’t really post much because I didn’t have to work so I was hanging out and drinking, when what do I see but a 150+ comment count on a thread about basketball. Immediately I think, Irish is arguing about Lebron and Dwight Howard and what do you know, there he is. Your boy had a good weekend Irish.
…until Amare dunked on his ass.
February 18th, 2008 at 5:26 PM
Lets just remember w/o question Dwight would have no problem dunking on Amare.
Also, I believe Kobe can still give Lebron a strong argument as to who is the best player in the game.
February 18th, 2008 at 5:33 PM
Cleverock, I do think you make good points, I’m not at all dismissing your arguments – I’m just saying that LeBron has the ball more than any player in the league (he has it more than Shaq did in his prime) – which is a big reason why the Cavaliers can’t play well without LeBron. It’s why I don’t think those numbers are as crucial.
Nick P, I actually have the same problem with the plus minus in games as i do the win/losses while injured. Again, You’re dealing with backups and guys that aren’t used to taking shots. It’s why the statistic is completely misleading (IMO).
And RD is just trying to mess with me. He knows I think the fans that boo DA were an embarrassment. I do like LeBron, totally a once in a lifetime unique player. I think I have a fondness for Kobe is that he’s doing ridiculous things in this league and it’s completely getting overlooked by many people (In Cleveland especially). People have conviently forgotten all the crazy things he did in the playoffs – but they seem to remember the Detroit series (in which the Lakers were old and poorly coached, and terribly officiated). If you think the Pistons were allowed to get away with the same stuff against the cavs last year as they were against the Lakers, then we’re not watching the same sport. They literally brought back handchecking for that series. Kobe did not play well (except for game 2 and his game winner). But let’s not act like his legacy is defined by that series, the way that the bashers think.
Shaq was already on the decline (averaged 20 a game that year..people forget this). Malone got injured during the playoff run and was useless. Gary Payton was a cancer. Kobe and Shaq were not getting along, Phil was apathetic. Yet it’s all apparently on Kobe. HMMMM… that sounds like Kobe bashing!
In the end, I respect the hell out of LeBron’s games at this point (I’ve seen him in person since his 5th every high school b’ball game). I’ve always enjoyed watching him pass (except in all-star games…shot chucker!!). But I don’t like him in many ways the same way I don’t like Shaq – he’s doing a ton with athleticism alone. Kobe has athleticism, but not the kind that’s once in a lifetime. I respect Kobe’s overall game more because he’s actually more skilled. I know that those words will start en entirely new debate, but I can’t help how I feel.
February 18th, 2008 at 5:35 PM
By the way, I’ve never cared about the whole “getting dunked on” thing. That’s such a ghetto, juvenile way of looking at things. The best shot blockers of all time have had memorable pownage moments
February 18th, 2008 at 5:40 PM
Wow. What in the hell happened here? Totally missed all this.
Taking out the game-winning aspect, i think dunking on someone trumps
a) striking someone out
b) nutmeg in soccer
c) hard hit/sack in football
d) no idea on hockey equivalent
February 18th, 2008 at 5:51 PM
All that is fair enough, but when talking about who is the best player (not who anybody respects) the skill argument matters none. Shaq was more valuable to the Lakers than Kobe (yes because of his size and whatnot) and LeBron is more valuable to the Cavs now than Kobe is to the Lakers (because of size and speed and strength mainly but not totally, LeBron has honed his talents). If you needed 1 guy to help your team get a win right now (and for the 2 seasons prior to this) you should (and NBA GMs would) take LeBron.
February 18th, 2008 at 5:54 PM
But isn’t the argument most valuable in the league; not most valuable to a specific team? Isn’t that obviously a subjective phrase than can be argued a bunch of different ways. Aren’t these arguments necessary? And isn’t a close vote demonstrative of several opinions of how to interpret the data being accepted (that is, no one opinion gaining the strong, upper hand)? Getting upset about the arguments is silly, but participating is necessary, no?
February 18th, 2008 at 5:55 PM
Unless it’s a Finals game, cuz, you know, he’s never won one.
February 18th, 2008 at 6:04 PM
Darko, that’s a different story. Lets determine who is a better basketball player using 4 games and disregarding 9 other players (90% of the floor) as well as the coaching.
Darko > LBJ
Moron
February 18th, 2008 at 6:18 PM
Your argument is pathetic. No one is comparing Darko to LBJ. Of course LBJ is better. But when you are comparing two players of similar skill sets, you use championships as a barometer—-well, except if you live in Cleveland where your city has no idea what one of those looks like. There’s a reason why Tim Duncan is considered “better” than Karl Malone. It’s why Barkley isn’t considered the greatest PF.
To be the best you have to have won a championship. Lebron has been to the finals once. He shot 35 percent. THIRTY FIVE. He AVERAGED more than 5 turnovers a game. He was a reason they lost. Cavs fans seem to forget this. You can’t win a single game? Even Allen Iverson willed his Sixers to a Finals win, against the most dominate postseason team in NBA history. Lebron couldn’t win one. And played like shit. Yet somehow he’s better.
February 18th, 2008 at 6:24 PM
Another reason barkley wasn’t considered the greatest PF is because he was 6′4″ and constantly out of shape.
February 18th, 2008 at 6:39 PM
I think championships are overrated in sports (Eli has one, Dan Marino doesn’t). But in basketball, I do think it’s a big deal. A player has a huge role in winning one. However, you have to have a good set of role players to make it happen, actually, a great set of role players.
I think some on here are being unfair to LeBron. He’s 23 and hasn’t had an NBA championship support cast. I also don’t think Kobe should be penalized for not getting out of the first round post-SHAQ. Again, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. NUFF SAID!!
February 18th, 2008 at 7:22 PM
So Kevin Garnett isn’t the best player in the NBA as of today, but he could just wake up one day in July 2008 and become the best player in the game? After leading a team to like 30 victories certain years?
Grow up, he either is or isn’t.
I haven’t heard you answer whether you think Wade is a better player than LeBron.
Who is better is determined by who is better on offense and defense and special teams (Oh not that last one) – Not Eric Snow, Mike Brown, Greg Popovic and other opponents.
Watch a game in December sometime, they are pretty good.
February 18th, 2008 at 7:51 PM
Of course Lebron is better than Wade. Lebron is the best player not named Kobe Bryant. If Lebron goes out and wins a championship, I will have a much harder time making my argument. But he hasn’t, and if he hasn’t been to the pinnacle of his profession, I don’t think you can classify him as the best in the league, over players who have. Jordan had to get pass Detroit, get some help around him, and learn to trust his teammates, and then finally win it all to become the best player in the league. Lebron must do the same. This is the way its been in the NBA for as long as its been around.
February 18th, 2008 at 7:56 PM
If LeBron James is the MVP, then Chris Paul should kill all the voters. If LeBron James is important to a middle of the pack Eastern Conference team, Chris Paul is even more important to one of the best teams in the Western Conference!!!!
Cleveland Fans at least use coeherence….it’s not that hard to do at least once a month…
February 18th, 2008 at 8:04 PM
The same Chris Paul with an All-Star teammate D-X and another teammate 4th in the league in rebounds and 3rd in FG% (T-Chandler)? And one more teammate 4th in the league in 3PT FG% (Peja)?
Yeah he’s doing it all by himself. Kudos to him.
And that’s not to take anything away from CP3, because he’s easily the best PG in the game today…but he’s playing with people that, to put it bluntly, don’t suck complete dick.
February 19th, 2008 at 8:15 AM
Nick did it ever crossed your mind that’s because of Chris Paul that David West is an All-Star and Tyson Chandler is playing very well. The same Chandler that in Chicago was like…uhm…Chris Dudley?
Remember the impact of Steve Nash on the Suns? Yes, with Marbury one of the worst teams in the league, enter Nash and then all players start playing a lot better, that’s the positive impact that an MVP should have on other players. if the other cavs player suck maybe that’s not only their fault…
February 19th, 2008 at 8:53 AM
damn make it 182 on this post thats what im talking about with ballin
cant beat the debates that go on here