Wrapping Up an HGH-Filled Offseason
Baseball, Drugs February 19th. 2008, 10:15am
Now that Andy Pettitte has spoken, we’re done with all matters of drugs and baseball for the offseason, right? It’s been a taxing three months on bloggers (pity the poor, basement-dwelling bloggers!) – have you any idea what it takes to summon the energy to write about the twin engines of baseball’s apocalyptic movement, HGH and steroids, day after day? (First nobody watched the World Series and now drugs are ruining the sport? No! Baseball is dying!) Surely commenters everywhere have run out of invective to hurl at Roger Clemens; hell, even ESPN’s Karl Ravech is so drained from these discussions that he is practically begging that, pesky large fly to return to the set of Baseball Tonight. Distractions, please! (This isn’t a bad one if you’re beginning fantasy baseball research – the top 100 baseball prospects.)
For a real discussion-starter, we turn to New Yorker scribe Malcolm Gladwell for his ruminations on HGH (these musings are a month old, but seem to fit nicely to fit with this topic). He drops the phrase “intellectual sloppiness” on MLB in defending the use of HGH:
“Similarly, it is perfectly legal for an athlete to get painkillers after an injury, so he can continue playing (and, I would point out, risk further injury.) It is not legal for that athlete to take Human Growth Hormone, in order to speed his recovery from that same injury. Again, why? What is the distinction? Why is it okay to play hurt but not okay to try and not play hurt? There may be a perfectly valid reason here as well. But don’t we need to spell out what it is?
I realize that the people running major league baseball and the NFL are not philosophers. But the intellectual sloppiness with which this current crusade has been conducted is appalling.”
And … go.
78 Responses to “Wrapping Up an HGH-Filled Offseason”
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February 19th, 2008 at 10:18 AM
It would be absolutely fantastic if this were the last post of the year on steroids/HGH. Perhaps actual baseball could be discussed in the near future. Hell, I would enjoy a post every now and then about the Lozoball draft and your thoughts/strategy.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:20 AM
I’m moving to a National League city on the West Coast and not getting cable. I just can’t take it anymore.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:20 AM
Jay Bruce >>>>>> your team’s prospect.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:22 AM
it is pretty appalling. selig fancies himself a knight in shining armor, but he’s just a doofus who doesn’t have a clue. fehr is just a smarmy dude playing the ultimate devil’s advocate.
the NFL is the big brother who the parents love and wish the younger bro, MLB, was like, yet goes out, gets hammered 5 nights a week, has 3 illegitimate kids and beats his GF.
none of this would be an issue if people were well educated on the matter and didn’t jump to wild conclusions about HGH and steroid use in general, but that would expect the general public/MSM to actually read.
put it this way: if you were an athlete today, would you cheat? ABSOLUTELY.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:22 AM
jay bruce > jesus
February 19th, 2008 at 10:22 AM
@CRM – That’s only the excuse you’re giving your parents for moving to San Francisco.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:23 AM
Wow, nice find. I was trying to get at this yesterday. I am not trying to defend the players, but it just seems strange. I wish I would have thought up the Lasik example. That is pretty much perfect. i was trying to prove the poitn yesterday that it shouldn’t be illegal to try to get better from an injury. I got killed for it.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:24 AM
@Nick
Its well known that Dusty has issues with playing rookies, how much will Bruce have to do to gain a starting spot.
*just for the record, I saw this kid play in Louisville last summer, and he is the real deal.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:24 AM
I’d cheat in a second, look what it did for Tejada. If you’ve never read Canseco’s book I’d recommend picking up a used copy just to see all of the allegations and how true they all were.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:26 AM
@Ben – At least Charles Barkley supports me.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:26 AM
Hey, we have a friend moving to San Fran – TBL will visit!
As for Lozoball – can’t put my strategy out there (duh) but I just grabbed Nick Swisher with my second pick. If you’d like to troll the salaries and email me thoughts on players to watch for, that would be much appreciated.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:26 AM
@spencer 096
I was thinking the exact same thing. My buddy back in high school swam about a half second faster thna me in a 200IM. He got a full ride to Hawaii. Me? I would have gotten my books paid for at Alma. If I could go back I would have juiced FOR SURE. I never once was tested and I would have certainly had an athletic scholorship to a D-1 school of my choice.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:27 AM
@blazers: No…Jay Bruce is real, and [he's] spectacular.
@iugrad: I’m hoping Krivsky is on his ass to play the kids. We shall see.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:27 AM
No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares. No one cares.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:28 AM
@Nick
Jay Bruce is my favorite Red, and he’s not even a Red yet. Im thinking Cueto with the cy young and Bruce with the MVP will be tough to beat
February 19th, 2008 at 10:29 AM
+1 jbriaz
February 19th, 2008 at 10:29 AM
@CRM – True, though his taste in men is awful.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:30 AM
@blazer: That may be a bit of a stretch. I’d say it’s more likely that Peavy wins it again, followed by 2. Harang, 3. Cueto, 4. Bailey. That’s a much more realistic scenario.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:31 AM
dont forget maloney and volquez. then i figure cordero wins the saves title
February 19th, 2008 at 10:32 AM
Hey Mags. Don’t sweat it man. You are good people here at TBL. Nothing with with disagreement.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:39 AM
I would call it intellectual insipidness. HGH in no way shape or form equals steroids.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:40 AM
@CRM – By west coast, you better mean west coast, of Japan. I can assure you even in CA we are tired of the Yanks and BoSox, and Steroids, and Balco etc
February 19th, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Did you guys read the last interview from Hank Steinbrenner attacking the NFL and NBA, saying than in those sports the percentage of players using steroids is bigger than in the MLB. Did you forget the NHL?
Baseball like basketball has a big problem to solve, why the peak of the season is never the Finals like it should be. In the NFL, it’s always the SuperBowl even if the AFC is clearly better than the NFC, but in the MLB and NBA it seems like the interest from the fans peak at the Conference Finals (last year in the NBA was even sooner in the 2nd Round of the West….)
February 19th, 2008 at 10:46 AM
I live on the East coast, and there is nary a snicker about the Mets. It’s all aboot the Sawx and Yanks.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:47 AM
CH4OS…yea i read that. steinbrenner needs to be quiet…he’s getting obnoxious.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Spencer, he has a name to uphold.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:49 AM
Not the best year for that argument.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:51 AM
CRM…didn’t you hear Boston Fans tho? they said the better team lost…who am i to believe?
February 19th, 2008 at 10:52 AM
The only thing I care about are BCS rankings so I shouldn’t say anything else.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:53 AM
CH4OS:
You’re right, it’s marketed poorly by the networks. Everyone hopes for a Red Sox/ Yankees ALCS and after that, no one cares.
I would rather have the Yankees and Red Sox be in different leagues for two reasons. there would be a legitimate chance to see them play for the world series and we wouldn’t have to suffer through 5 months of yankees/red sox games, there would be only 7, maybe 10-12 total with interleague.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Just because the Conference Finals get better ratings than the Championship series (baseball, basketball or hockey), doesnt mean finals are a failure.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:56 AM
the NBA and NHL playoffs are far too long, that’s why no once cares about them. After Suns/Spurs last year, who really watched the rest, and that was early in the playoffs.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:57 AM
finals are a failure because the weaker conference doesn’t belong.
football/NCAA tourney = 1 game – flukes happen
NBA/MLB = 7 game series – one game, sure, but more often than not, the better team wins easily…no fun.
February 19th, 2008 at 10:59 AM
As teams are eliminated so are fan bases.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:00 AM
I’m confused. Is there anyone who used steroids who didn’t play for the Yankees? ESPN doesn’t seem to think so.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:02 AM
I think there should be a big market league and a small market league in all sports. We could borrow the outline England uses for the EPL.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:02 AM
spencer096 but if you have 2 great teams in the Finals like the Lakers vs. Celtics rivalry back in the day. That way all games are great and with a lot of intensity and you can have 7 games!!! David Stern needs to make a system that allows the best teams to face each other in the Finals. Period.
About the MLB, the problem is more cultural. It seems that nationwide the interest is the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs and then it’s a local interest…If you had a Cubs vs. Red Sox finals the ratings would be off the roof, even if there were better teams in the league.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:03 AM
I dont wanna hear “the better team wins easily”.
First of all, the winner is always the better team. and it’s NOT always easy.
That’s it. I don’t have a second of all.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:03 AM
that’s why i hate espn. impartiality went out a long time ago, and when they start to become influenced by the fans attitude towards a team it does a disservice to sports.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:08 AM
CHAOS:
Then why have the playoffs ? just take the 2 teams with the best record and put them in the finals. That completes your arguement.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:08 AM
Magglio, that’s not the outline the EPL uses.
They use relegation and even a team from a big city can be relegated. One team from the second best city from England (Birmingham) was not in the Premier League for a couple of years, despite having teams from small towns. The EPL works with a reward system, the best teams from the Second Dvision get promoted and enter in the EPL in place of the worst teams. In the American Leagues format, that can’t be used.
If you see the top of the table you see always the same clubs: Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham (London), Manchester Utd (Manchester), Liverpool (Liverpool), Aston Villa (Birmingham) that are the bigger towns in England. It’s the same problem, because bigger city, bigger attendance, then bigger profit, more money to invest in good player, more wins and so on…
February 19th, 2008 at 11:09 AM
CH4OS…pistons vs. spurs was a Finals matchup with 2 great teams but there’s a difference between ‘great’ and ‘entertaining.’ i love the NBA, but that series was abysmal to watch, i couldnt imagine a casual fan getting into that.
i couldnt tell if you were being sarcastic in your NBA paragraph tho.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:11 AM
Gonzo,
You can still have the Playoffs, but i don’t see why do you have to continue using Conferences. It’s not like the players travel by bus like in the old days…
If you want you can continue to have divisions but get the 16 best teams seeded with best regular-season record, short the first and second round to 5 games (so you can have more upsets) and then have the Semi-Finals and FInals at best of 7.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:12 AM
@CH4OS
Yeah, I know it isn’t the perfect scenario, but it would work. If the Yankees were shitty for a five year run they would get demoted. I really think that could have legs here. I like my team and if they sucked they could be in a minor-ish league for a while and compete. If my team was really great they could bump up to “the majors” and win there. I have always liked this idea. Then the Yankees can play the Sawks every year and thier fans can have boners all day. And I can still enjoy my team winning something as well (if my team were the Royals or whatever)
February 19th, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Oh no, after reading my last comment i noticed that…i’m becoming Bill Simmons….
February 19th, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Mags…that’s a great idea.
CH40S…another good point. too many teams make the NBA playoffs.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:14 AM
Why would anyone want more upsets? It makes for drama (I guess), but don’t you want the best team to win?
Let’s shorten the 3 point line and the game, and lengthen the shot clock while we’re at it. Make it as easy as possible for the lesser team to win.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Yes Magglio it could work, at least would end with the tanking in the NBA…
But if college football can’t have a playoff system, than i don’t see how in hell they would put in place relegations in american leagues.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Well the media is pushing for this in a way. If I were a fan of the Twins, Indians, Royals etc. I would be pissed at how the big market teams fleece my best players every few years. It is a fucking joke. If anything it would make more sense to just call them what they are and let them compete in the “minor league” once they do a sell off. And when they get thier young crops (like they always do) and start getting truly good again they could get promoted and they could compete against those big market teams in the “major leagues” who are always good. I think it would work in the MLB perfectly. The NBA… I am not so sure.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:22 AM
Nick, don’t you also want to make the NFL Finals a best of 7? That way there’s a smaller chance of upsets, who wants that…that’s why the March Madness and the Superbowl doesn’t have ratings…(sarcasm alert)
February 19th, 2008 at 11:23 AM
The only sport Relegation/Promotion could work is baseball. Unfortunately thats the sport with the greatest mystique/history/gay writers boneing themselves over tradition to change it.
If the NBDL can gain more traction/teams then it could support it as well. But thats a ways off.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:27 AM
Relegation in the NBA? With David Stern?
He now wants to expansion to Europe, i’m giddy to see the players refusing to play in Moscow. It seems that over there is a little cold in the Winter…
February 19th, 2008 at 11:28 AM
I think there should be a big market league and a small market league in all sports. We could borrow the outline England uses for the EPL.
I couldn’t agree more, magglio. I’ve also believed this for a long time. The Royals, Rays, As, and Twins should all be in the same division competing for one playoff berth. And I truly believe that if they made a division like this, these teams might actually have an incentive to get off their ass, try to be competitive, and spend some money.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:29 AM
they wouldnt be sending americans over there to play CH40s. they would be all european. im giddy to see your response
February 19th, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Woudn’t the American teams play the overseas teams, in the overseas country?
I think the NBA expansion into Europe and beyond is an awful idea.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:33 AM
March Madness is great for 18 days; the college basketball season as a whole is 4-5 months of unadulterated torture. The regular season is absolutely meaningless (and painful to watch), and March Madness is a horrible vehicle to determine a champion.
The Super Bowl has great ratings because it’s 1 day and a big party. A casual person watches for the commercials and to get drunk and eat with friends. The teams/game has no bearing on why the majority watch. It’s pageantry, not sport.
Obviously in a sport like football, a 7 game series couldn’t work, but in the sports that it *can* work, like baseball and basketball, why wouldn’t you want that?
Let’s shorten the majors from 72 holes to 3 holes, and see how many Tiger wins then. Make the NBA Finals one quarter, and see how many rings Jordan has. The longer anything goes and the more onus that is put on the regular season, the better the chance that cream rises.
I think MLB should get rid of the wildcard too, but that will never happen.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:33 AM
great idea cbh for them to expand. Wilbon on PTI brought up the idea the other day of having a USA vs World at the NBA all star game just like in hockey
February 19th, 2008 at 11:35 AM
I agree with Wilbon’s All Star idea.
I just worry that you add more teams and it will just dilute the talent level, although I know nothing about overseas basketball so I could and probably am wrong.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:38 AM
Nick, baseball almost has it right. 4 playoff teams in each league are perfect, but having 3 divisions is silly. either have 2 divisions in each league (with 2 wildcards) or 4 divisions in each league and make the division winners make it.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Nick, how is regular season meaningless in college basketball? You don’t play well in the regular season you don’t make the tournament. There is the rare team that get’s hot in the conference tournament and makes it but that certainly isn’t anything you can count on.
Not every game means something but to say the regular season as a whole is meaningless is short sighted.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:40 AM
irishmafia, european players?!? The idea is to have franchises there that operate in the same manner like in here, so when Dwight Howard is traded for the Barcelona Pickpockets don’t act surprised. Giddy…
February 19th, 2008 at 11:43 AM
@cbh49er, the quality in Europe is good and they have a good system with local leagues and the EuroLeague, but the great european players are already in the NBA. So you know, Sarunas Jasikevicius was the best player in the EuroLeague twice, in the NBA he was…good cheering in the bench of the Warriors during last year Playoff run.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:44 AM
everyone just sit back and enjoy irish at his best.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:44 AM
Thanks for the knowledge CH4OS, and you’re right about Sarunas, he reminded me of myself in that he was the best non female cheerleader I have seen.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:45 AM
@ch4os
I have heard somewhere that Arvidas Sabonas (big white C used to play for Portland)was like bigger than Jordan over there and he was good here even late in his career, but when he was younger he was just unbelievably good. I don’t know anything about basketball over there. Have you heard anything like that?
February 19th, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Yes. He’s a legend in Lithuania and i think i read somewhere he bought a team there.
But like you can see Sabonis was a great player in Europe, not so good in the last years, but was only a good player in the NBA.
It’s a fact that you have a lot of teams in Europe, but the better ones have to acquire Americans that can’t play in the NBA. Trajan Langdon was one of the best players for one of the great teams in Europe (CSKA Moskow?) and Mike Batiste played one year in Memphis and now is a star in Greece.
The most funny story i heard is that Dirk Nowitzki was playing in the Second Division of Germany and even the First Division is weak…
February 19th, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Sabonis was like 34-35 years old when he finally came over and battled horrible foot problems. He was a legend in Europe when younger and healthy.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:57 AM
That is awesome. I used to tell people that (not knowing if it was true) and they would not believe me. Freaking Arvidas Sabonis.
February 19th, 2008 at 12:00 PM
@ CRM
I hear San Diego is great from February until mid-September when the Padres start to become “discovered” before their eventual collapse and about the right time to leave when the Chargers start to become mouthy.
February 19th, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Look for Ricky Rubio from Spain to be the top NBA draft pick 2009.
February 19th, 2008 at 12:37 PM
CH40s so you think it is a good idea i take it?
February 19th, 2008 at 12:58 PM
What idea?
February 19th, 2008 at 12:59 PM
european division
February 19th, 2008 at 1:24 PM
I don’t believe it’s a good idea, because:
a) you dilute the talent in the league or you move teams from american cities to european cities.
b) you have to add at least 5 new teams, so that you don’t make a road trip only to play in Berlin or Rome.
c) The Players Association and players that would veto any idea like this, because i can’t see many talented players wanting to live in Moscow or Berlin during the Winter, leaving their country so they can play basketball… then don’t forget that players have to adapt to new countries and new cultures and it’s going to take his toll on the game.
One perfect exemple is Dirk Nowitzki that in the first half of his rookie season looked more like Maciej Lampe or Nikoloz Tskitishvili than an future MVP. This would drop the level of play of the league…
d) Jet-lag. Imagine what is to play in Moscow Wednesday then play in New York on Saturday, that’s probably a 8 hour time zone difference. I even remember when the Rockets and the Kings played one game at China a couple of days before the “Official Start” of the regular-season and even with 4 days off, they seemed rusty in the first couple of games in the States.
e) Violence. Do you think David Stern wants NBA arenas with crazy fans jumping and screaming like maniacs like they do in Greece or Israel? It’s a total madness, if you think Duke vs. North Carolina is a rivalry that’s because you never watched a Panathinaikos vs. Olimipiakos, normally in the day of the games you have 2 or 3 people killed because of a simple game of basketball.
David Stern must think highly of himself if he thinks he can change the culture of the fans in Europe. (a la George W. Bush) They don’t want to watch games in their seats, they want to be in their feet jumping, drinking and screaming. If David Stern thinks the Brawl in Detroit was big, then be prepared to a lot bigger crisis…
The option he have is to add sterile cities like London, where basketball is not a mainstream sport, but then you have a team with no supporters….
I really don’t see what David Stern is trying to do, and that’s never going to happen. The NBA is by large the bigger american sport in Europe, even the small country i live have a national broadcasted game everyday! Play an All-Star every 4 years in Europe and stop playing with fire David…
February 19th, 2008 at 1:27 PM
i totally agree with what you said. I didnt even think of the violence over there that you mentioned. that is a great point.
i would love to see the idea of a World vs USA for the all star game, similiar to what the NHL does. same thing for the skills events
thats about as far as i would like to that idea go.
February 19th, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Yeah irish, what i dont understand with David Stern is that he’s willing to add franchises in Europe but he don’t want to change one bit at the All-Star Saturday?
He wants the NATIONAL Basketball Association with teams from Europe, but he don’t want to change the height of the rim in the Slam Dunk…
What’s the problem with adding a contest of H-O-R-S-E? At least would be more fun than the Veteran-Player-WNBA Player shit.
The problem with the World vs. NBA is that would end with the culture of the “no defense just dunk” game. As i don’t like the All-Star game so much, i would enjoy a true game where pride is at stake, but i don’t see the american perennial all-stars wanting that because they would not be selected and being an All-Stars means $$$.
So if they don’t want to end with the East vs. West why not just add the World vs. USA game on Friday after the Rookie Challenge? At least that would add some excitement…
February 19th, 2008 at 1:44 PM
a Horse contest i like that thought. Stern is a lot about bringing the NBA global recognition. I like stern, think he handled the REF thing very well. great ideas CH40S great comments
February 19th, 2008 at 2:27 PM
CH40S great posts and Bill Simmons likes the HORSE idea.