Joe Buck vs. Tim McCarver in a HOF Debate
Baseball, Drugs July 1st. 2008, 10:39am
The utterly contemptible duo of Joe Buck and Tim McCarver, who are destined to ruin your MLB postseason with the fatal combination of pretension and smarmy (better them than Steve Lyons, right?), got into brief Hall of Fame debate over the weekend regarding Andy Pettitte. Dandy Andy’s HGH admission entered the discussion.
Since 1900, McCarver said, any pitcher whose record is 100 games over .500 (Pettitte is 210-118) has entered the Hall of Fame. T-Mac reasoned Pettitte could pitch another three years (“if he wants to”) and with the way he’s performing, might end up 100 games over .500.
“Yeah, but not one of those pitchers (who were 100 games over and enshrined in Cooperstown) ever admitted to taking HGH,” Buck replied.
McCarver: “(Pettitte said he took HGH) Only once.”
We’re usually up for a spirited HOF debate, but we felt like turning to Intern Bill (aka, The second biggest baseball fan we know) on this one, limiting him to one sentence: “No. He wasn’t a Hall of Famer pitcher before the HGH, and he certainly wasn’t one after it.” Anticipating an angry call from Bert Blyleven in four, three, two …
Joe Buck injects doubt into Andy Pettitte’s Hall of Fame chances (NY Daily News)
112 Responses to “Joe Buck vs. Tim McCarver in a HOF Debate”
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July 1st, 2008 at 10:41 AM
Didn’t Petitte admit to using it more than once? And if McCarver really believes he only used it once anyway he is a bigger moron than I thought.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:41 AM
pettitte isn’t an HoFer. hell, he’s not even all-star quality. the only reason anyone knows who he is is because he’s a yankee, if he was on the brewers or rockies, he’d be as well known as aaron harang.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:41 AM
curt schilling sucks.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:42 AM
if it keeps big mac, clemens, and bonds out theres no way in hell he should even get remotely close
July 1st, 2008 at 10:44 AM
Bert better get in this year. That’s all.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:44 AM
i think HGH admission should keep all out of the HOF, just as gambling has kept others out.
i did find the 100 games over 500 an interesting statistic, I had never heard that one. Kinda the alternative to 300 wins. Almost like 3000 hits are to 500 HRs.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Yankee fan here and I won’t even argue for Pettitte. Wins is an even worse stat than RBI and his wins-losses record is entirely due to the teams he played for. I won’t matter though because I don’t see Pettitte pitching 3 more years at this level (or at all)
July 1st, 2008 at 10:45 AM
with fetch on that.. blyleven = yes.. pettite/mussina = no
July 1st, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Buck and McCarver are so indefatigable.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:45 AM
You know you’ve made it when TBL goes to you for a soundbite.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:46 AM
blyleven? gimme a break. why not just let everyone in? why have any standards at all for the HoF? just let any guy who a fanbase likes (i.e. Jim Rice) in just because.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:47 AM
i wouldn’t go as far as saying wins is a bad stat to use. why is 300 wins such a big deal then? it is not entirely due to the team you play for. Obviously that helps, but not entirely.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:47 AM
Joe Buck isn’t going to ruin my MLB post season: Frank Caliendo has taken care of that (they’re running even more of those annoying Frank TV Promos this year!).
July 1st, 2008 at 10:47 AM
Madonna is in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Mussina is still a ?. he may have completely reinvented himself this year, and has a chance to pith 3 more years and get closer to 300.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:49 AM
Why do bozos like these guys insist on talking about players who don’t belong in the HOF. Had they been talking about Roger Clemens I probably wouldn’t hate them so much. Roger is HOF ready, but with the stuff hanging over his head it’s a worthy discussion. Pettite isn’t even in the discussion. He was not good enough for long enough. 2 or 3 years of quality pitching is not enough.
I think people have lowered their standards for the hall, in all sports. I always thought that the hall was for the best of the best who weren’t douchebags. Sure Bonds and Clemens put up HOF numbers, but they were also major league fuckheads. N0-go for me.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:49 AM
he’d certainly make it right into the Hall of Very Good, but he’s going to be just as well known for his HGH use as all his accomplishments and that keeps him out.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:49 AM
@Clown: + Jew star.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:50 AM
since blyleven was mentioned, again, might as well put the other one out there we keep bring up…Jack Morris.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:50 AM
@sparty – ok, i take that back a little. Over the course of a career wins is an OK stat but over a single season, I don’t like the use of w/l records.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:51 AM
As a Yankee fan, I say three things:
1. Andy Pettite is not a hall of famer.
2. Curt Schilling blows.
3. Holy Sh*t! The Rays are in first place in the AL East?
July 1st, 2008 at 10:52 AM
@big nuts- and the tigers are red hot. playoffs without the Sox and Yanks? damn those teams with the highest payrolls, so unfair.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:52 AM
TBL, I must say that I love the first sentence.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:53 AM
I’m a big Pettitte fan, but the HGH will definitely hurt his chances even if he finished 100 games over .500.
I personally don’t think Blyleven is a hall of famer and Schitbag shouldn’t make it just because he has 3 world series rings.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:53 AM
sparty: Mussina, also a very good pitcher, but not great. Sandibalz is right, the criteria has been watered down for Hall standards. I’d like to think if the player can match up with the first class of HOF players they make it in. if not, too bad.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:54 AM
He’s not a HOFer, but Petite needs to leave all that NY crap and come on back to my Astros! We could use a solid lefty right now…
July 1st, 2008 at 10:55 AM
@sparty – to further your statement, the Tigers and Mets are above the Red Sox in payroll, and they’re right at .500 (Tigers 2 games above, Mets 2 games below).
July 1st, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Mussina > Pettitte
in terms of HoF caliber career
July 1st, 2008 at 10:57 AM
i got a better one for ya. Does Derek Jeter have to get to 3000 hits? Are post-season heroics and 4 rings enough?
July 1st, 2008 at 10:58 AM
I was more devastated by McCarver’s attempt at style with his new glasses.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Fuck Mussina, damn traitor.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:59 AM
He’ll get 3,000.
July 1st, 2008 at 10:59 AM
i hate jeter, but he’s a lock. tho, i wouldnt vote him in because he can’t field worth a shit (don’t tell baseball writers that tho…he deserves another GG).
July 1st, 2008 at 10:59 AM
@st. bear-was assuming the sox were behind the yanks as usual. i know the tigers have a high payroll, just saying that everyone blames the sox and yanks as having the big unfair advantage over the rest of the league.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:01 AM
@sparty – Baseball Reference lists the most similar batters to Jeter:
1) Barry Larkin
2) Alan Trammell
3) Ray Durham
Not exactly rarified company.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:04 AM
he should reach 3000. just saying if he just suddenly hits a wall.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:04 AM
i think HGH admission should keep all out of the HOF, just as gambling has kept others out.
That’s dumb… HGH wasn’t even banned by MLB until recently and is 100% legal under a doctor’s supervision. Gambling has been the cardinal sin in baseball for a century and everyone knew it…
July 1st, 2008 at 11:06 AM
but they weren’t using it legally under doctors supervision. sorry if i live somewhat by a code of ethics.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Free Apple I-pod>>>>> Baseball HOF
July 1st, 2008 at 11:06 AM
The Sports Hernia isn’t funny when he talks about the Yankees.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:08 AM
HGH wasn’t even banned by MLB until recently and is 100% legal under a doctor’s supervision.
who cares if it is legal with a doctors note. Players used it to get ahead in baseball. That is cheating
July 1st, 2008 at 11:10 AM
my doctor says i need medicinal marijuana to get high
July 1st, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Ah come on cbh, we can’t blame Moose for leaving when he did. Besides, he would’ve just been another guy making too much money on a losing team over the last several years.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:11 AM
damnit. I switched the quote
July 1st, 2008 at 11:11 AM
Moose was the AL version of Maddux in the 90s. too bad the O’s weren’t as good in the regular season as the Braves.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:13 AM
Players used it to get ahead in baseball. That is cheating
It’s only cheating if it’s against the rules.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Blargh, I know ill, just pissed off here at work and saw Mussina and took it out on him via the internets.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:15 AM
too bad the O’s weren’t as good in the regular season as the Braves.
It’s hard to win when kids are jumping out of the stands turning F-9’s into homeruns.
/still bitter
July 1st, 2008 at 11:16 AM
really? .975, .979, and .981 fielding percentages his three gold glove years and he can’t field worth shit?
July 1st, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Is it football season yet?
July 1st, 2008 at 11:18 AM
i dont think people are saying they should be shot or anything, but the HOF voters take tons of shit into consideration and against the rules or not they are certainly allowed to take performance enhancer use into consideration.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Spence I hope you were joking about Bert not being allowed in.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:18 AM
The real question is, when will McCarver’s eyebrows join forces with Andy Rooney and take over the world?
July 1st, 2008 at 11:18 AM
That is one person I will always hate, Jeffrey fucking Maier.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:19 AM
BCeagles – fielding percentages don’t mean shit. That’s pretty well documented.
Sparty – if by “the 90s AL version of Maddux” you mean the best the AL had to offer as the closest thing to Maddux, but still not in his stratosphere, then yes, that’s very accurate.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Hockey free agency starts today.. rumor is the Wings will be making a pitch for Hossa.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Jeffrey Maier is my hero
July 1st, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Oh they’re allowed to take HGH usage into account, but I think it’s very lame: it shouldn’t hold a single ounce of weight more than ballpark size or newer bat materials…
July 1st, 2008 at 11:26 AM
about 15 teams will be making pitches
it will be interesting to see how full of shit he is. if he ends up in chicago its safe to say the ‘i will take less to play for a winner’ line was complete garbage
the pens still have a shot at him, but anything over 5 years is crazy. paying a 36 year old winger 7-8 million a year is retarded
July 1st, 2008 at 11:28 AM
yes.
fetch…yea, i was dead serious. it’s the hall of fame, not the hall of B+ for 20 years.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:28 AM
For Orioles fans, I would imagine Bob Costas saying “And what happens hear?” will echo for all eternity.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:29 AM
*here
July 1st, 2008 at 11:30 AM
richie garcia, best umpire ever….
July 1st, 2008 at 11:30 AM
sorry, ill expand a little bit. the dude has no range, and his fielding percentages aren’t that great considering he can’t get to shit. he makes a few nice plays here and there that get on sportscenter, but he’s not a Gold Glover.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:31 AM
In seasons where they made 30 starts, Schilling had an ERA of 4.00+ once. Pettitte did it seven times. Curt’s career ERA+ – 127, Pettitte 118. Schilling career WHIP 1.137 (better than Maddux) and Pettitte 1.355. If you look at Schilling’s numbers, when he was healthy he was the best of his contemporaries (Pedro excluded) at striking people out, not walking people and not giving up hits. Pettitte was consistently above average and played on good teams. Pettitte also gets killed on the Baseball Reference Hall of Fame tests.
I thought the only thing that Buck and McCarver argue over would be the last dallop of Just for Men.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:31 AM
the yanks best SS plays 3B. i know, that joke has been said a lot, but it is true…
July 1st, 2008 at 11:33 AM
jibbles – there’s no way the Wings can afford Hossa. I haven’t been following the offseason very closesly, but I’m pissed the Wings wasted money on Chelios.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:33 AM
*closely
July 1st, 2008 at 11:33 AM
no range? do you WATCH yankee games or do you just make shit up as you go along?
July 1st, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Schilling hasn’t been the best pitcher on his team since he was on the Phillies. Not a HOFer.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:34 AM
bceagles…ive watched enough to make an educated opinion.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:37 AM
Fielding percentage is worth absolutely nothing.
Jeter/Larkin are both first ballot. As SS, their hitting exploits are worth much more than any other position save for catcher.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:38 AM
bceagles- Jeter is very good to his right, awful to his left. There ya go.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:38 AM
does schilling blogging cost him votes with writers?
July 1st, 2008 at 11:39 AM
bceagles: Jeter is a HOF, but it has very little to do with his defense. He’s been the worst shortstop in the game defensively since he entered the league. It’s fine, though, since he rakes.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:40 AM
I think his strong arm and that falling into the outfield throw he makes once a post-season has fooled even yankee fans into thinking he is a great fielder. he bobbles a ton of grounders.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:41 AM
@mole – You really don’t think the Hawks can be a contender this upcoming season? They were just short of reaching the playoffs, they have two of the best rookies in the league, and I fully expect them to make some significant free agent signings.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:41 AM
You have got to be kidding me. I agree with fetch that he is much better to his right then he is to his left, but to say that he is a shitty defensive player or worst in the game defensively is absurd. He makes those absurd plays in the hole on a regular basis. What statistical basis could you use to determine Gold Gloves instead of FP? I agree it probably has some flaws, but to say it doesn’t mean shit is stupid, do you have anything better?
July 1st, 2008 at 11:42 AM
@sparty: Good point. The problem is *nearly* ever other SS in the league just fields that and throws it with no problem, no ghey-strahan jump needed.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:43 AM
@nick p- worst SS in league…Jhonny Peralta.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:44 AM
Yeah, I do. Read this.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Is there anyway I can use Sportsgal’s quote to mention that I’ve hung out with Toews a couple times?
Anyways, bceagles, some of the more advanced statistics methods, such as range factor, zone rating and FRAA do indeed list Jeter as the worst fielding SS in baseball. Personally I don’t trust the defensive stats as much as a lot of people do, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I’m right either. Jeter has a strong arm and is good to his right, and probably should have been a CF. As an aside, my cousin drove Jeter from Columbus to Cleveland when he was called up, I think for the first time but I could be wrong on that.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:46 AM
@bceagles: a quick google search gives me these articles which discuss various other fielding stats that rate Jeter among the worst in baseball.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_weisman/02/03/defense.metrics/index.html
http://mvn.com/mlb-stats/2008/06/24/vindicating-derek-jeters-fielding-at-short-sorta/
http://blog.nj.com/yankees/2008/02/stat_of_the_day_jeters_fieldin.html
July 1st, 2008 at 11:47 AM
a contender to make the playoffs sure, but i wouldnt take them to get out of the first round in that conference.
maybe columbus would be the better example.
and a hearty LOL @ tampa. they are paying ryan malone more than zetterberg, alfredsson, mike richards, etc. plus theyre shipping out dan boyle probably. and theyve traded away most of their last round picks for next year. i seem to remember overpaying people, getting rid of defenders, and not drafting well were what put that team in the shitter. great start to the new regime
July 1st, 2008 at 11:48 AM
@sparty: Maybe right now, but over the years, Jeter has cost the Yanks more wins, just because he’s logged a ton more innings there.
Jeter should be in left field.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:49 AM
Dan Boyle went to a good college. Both hockey-wise and ladies-wise.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:49 AM
pens just signed dupuis ….. please god dont tell me he will be a first liner
July 1st, 2008 at 11:49 AM
fetch, I’ve hung out with Jack Black a bunch of times. What’s your point?
July 1st, 2008 at 11:51 AM
fetch’s dad totally owns a dealership, he will totally hook you up
July 1st, 2008 at 11:51 AM
Other than the fact that Johnathan Toews is way cooler than Jack Black, nothing.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:52 AM
I don’t buy it, at all. Bill James LOVES to shit on yankees, first of all. Ever since I saw his interview on 60 minutes I puke in my mouth when I hear his name. From my skim of the analysis you just linked to, it looks like it is not a definitive analysis by any means. Just because Jeter doesn’t set his feet when he throws, it doesn’t make him a bad shortstop.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:55 AM
but he is Captain Clutch…we should have asked LeBatard about this when he was on for the chat. he hates that about Jeter.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:56 AM
How am I not surprised you don’t believe it?
July 1st, 2008 at 11:56 AM
BCeagles – I said it doesn’t mean shit. And you’re stupid. So there.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:58 AM
And BCEagles – take the Yankee colored glasses off for a bit, homer. Once you do, you’ll realize that Andres Thomas was the best shortstop of all time.
July 1st, 2008 at 11:59 AM
I guarantee Tampa will be the biggest joke in the league after this season. I like Barry Melrose, but he hasn’t coached in more than 10 years.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:00 PM
The continual Jeter bashing is nonsense..I love how the players said Jeter and A-Rod were both overrated, but would pick both of them to start teams.
And Bill James’ info is garbage. And he did NOT help the Red Sox win any championship as some would have you believe (the idiots at Fox).
July 1st, 2008 at 12:02 PM
@My Pinstripes – the “bashing,” on here at least, has been fair. He’s not a good defensive shortstop, but is a great hitter. Is that not accurate?
July 1st, 2008 at 12:03 PM
Yankees suck, that’s all I have to add to this discourse.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Nick, you raise an interesting point, Jeter to LF. He should be able to make the transition, and maybe they look for a SS in the draft or developing one. They can get a high OBP guy with above-avg range.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Coaching hockey is like riding a bike: nobody gives a shit if you can do it.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:20 PM
Jeter doesn’t have the power to play a corner OF position.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:23 PM
I agree with that, Fetch. But they’ll be paying him $20M in 2011, when he’ll be 37. He’s already a butcher at SS. How bad will he be then?
July 1st, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Good point Nick, I’d just like to say on behalf of the rest of baseball: Thanks Yankees!
July 1st, 2008 at 12:28 PM
@ All…Jeter is a HOFer, no doubt. Not really sure why there is debate around that.
Pettite, and Moose for that matter, are HOFers too.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:31 PM
No one is debating Jeter as a HOF.
Although, while we’re at it, throw Boomer, Tino, Paul O’Neill, and David Justice in as well. Yankeez RooL!
July 1st, 2008 at 12:40 PM
Why are hockey idiots hating on Tampa Bay?
July 1st, 2008 at 12:58 PM
When does Greg Maddux officially become the greatest pitcher of this generation? Has to happen soon right?
July 1st, 2008 at 1:23 PM
because they are overpaying for offense when they have no defense and suspect goaltending, and are trading away picks left and right when not having a decent draft for five straight years is what put them in the shitty situation they are in.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:25 PM
overpaying for Vinny? just let the season start
July 1st, 2008 at 1:27 PM
um no? overpaying for ryan malone and vrbata. again, they are paying malone more than zetterberg, daniel aldreddson, and mike richards. three franchise players. malone is never going to produce as well as he did this year, hes a massive massive fraud.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:28 PM
and 1.2 million for gary roberts? the guy cannot stay healthy for more than three games.