Is Manny Ramirez Close to Becoming a Marlin?*
Baseball July 30th. 2008, 8:17pm
[*10:25 pm - Baseball Prospectus claims there is a deal in place that would send Manny to Florida and Jason Bay to Boston, and the Pirates and Padres would be involved, too. According to the site, all that remains is nailing down of what prospects are to be involved.]
Less than 24 hours until the MLB trade deadline, and we’re doing a post at 8:15 pm because maybe, just maybe, the Red Sox could be on the verge of dealing Manny Ramirez to the Marlins. While it might seem strange – nee, downright bizarre – that the defending champs would deal their most reliable and clutch right-handed bat while in the throes of a pennant race, Boston might be entering a four-team deal that reportedly involves Jason Bay (to the Sox), the Padres and the Pirates. That’s the word out of Miami from a nascent blogger whom we might throw a party for if his sources are accurate. The Palm Beach Post and Baseball Prospectus are on the case, as well. [Jon Heyman just updated his SI story with this same business at 8:10 pm.]
120 Responses to “Is Manny Ramirez Close to Becoming a Marlin?*”
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July 30th, 2008 at 8:21 PM
I’m not liking that comment by Manny. The way he acts, he doesn’t deserve the Sox. And I’m not even a Boston fan.
July 30th, 2008 at 8:26 PM
This is one of the strangest situations I’ve ever seen between a baseball player and a team. I can’t believe this is actually a possibility. That quote only intensifies it.
July 30th, 2008 at 8:27 PM
Who is Cortes’ “source”? Hef?
July 30th, 2008 at 8:28 PM
Manny+South Beach=”Manny being arrested”….
July 30th, 2008 at 8:28 PM
At some point, don’t the Red Sox remember how clutch and incredible Man-Ram is in the postseason? But I guess if a guy doesn’t want to be there …
July 30th, 2008 at 8:31 PM
Actually, through a bizarre twist, it is legit. If he wants to say it, he can. Now with SI on the case, i don’t doubt he’s on the right track.
Rosenthal hasn’t updated since 730.
July 30th, 2008 at 8:32 PM
I mean I guess it makes some sense. Bay could be legit in that ballpark, is much younger, and much cheaper. And they’d be rid of the headache that is Manny Ramirez for a quiet Canadian.
But yes, the BoSox seem to be forgetting how incredibly clutch he has been for them.
July 30th, 2008 at 8:34 PM
I agree TBL, the Sox have to know that they might lose in the World Series to the Marlins if Florida has Manny and they don’t?
July 30th, 2008 at 8:35 PM
can’t really say at this point mike, but i had the story about 30-40 mins before the starks and carrolls got a hold of it.. we’ll see what happens..
July 30th, 2008 at 8:36 PM
is nee even a word?
July 30th, 2008 at 8:38 PM
And as cunningham brought up, what’s the over/under on how long before Manny gets arrested after he joins the team, should this trade go through? 4 hours after the first game ends?
July 30th, 2008 at 8:46 PM
moleman –
via dictionary.com
July 30th, 2008 at 8:47 PM
gonna go out on a limb and say thats not what he meant to say then
NI!
July 30th, 2008 at 8:49 PM
Nay.
July 30th, 2008 at 8:51 PM
advice: If your plane goes down over the Pacific, and you’re in the water waiting for help, and you see white-tipped sharks, get the hell outta dodge.
They are not friendly.
July 30th, 2008 at 8:52 PM
Gee, thanks TBL. You might’ve just saved my life.
July 30th, 2008 at 8:54 PM
Surviving a plane crash only to be eaten by sharks. Luck is not on your side.
July 30th, 2008 at 8:55 PM
ill never put on a life jacket again
July 30th, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Isn’t the narrator Terrance from Entourage?
July 30th, 2008 at 8:59 PM
Malcom McDowell or whatever.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:01 PM
I guess I’m the only one lost here: what the hell is TBL talking about with the sharks?
July 30th, 2008 at 9:04 PM
lol
it’s shark week on the discovery channel!!
July 30th, 2008 at 9:04 PM
shark week perhaps? TBL you see the show last night called ‘how not to become shark bait’? good stuff
July 30th, 2008 at 9:07 PM
Ahh, forgot about shark week. Fun story: I used to live in Florida and went to a nice beach (forgot the name). I moved back to Texas, and within the next month like a dozen people got bit by sharks at that beach. Reading the news stories was kind of surreal for me.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:07 PM
never been a huge fan of shark week for some reason. i stick to man v wild, deadliest catch, and dirty jobs
July 30th, 2008 at 9:10 PM
absolutly unreal that is has come down to this between manny and the sox, they’ve toyed with each other back and forth for so long, not many remember but ONE year before the sox won the world series on oct 31 ‘03 ANY TEAM IN THE MAJORS COULD HAVE HAD MANNY FOR NOTHING, the sox put him on waivers and nobody took him, thats as close as it has ever come but i didnt think it would come to this. I’ve hated guys who thought they were above the team (cough favre cough) and distracted the team, but this guy could have jumped from the monster naked and it would have been fine in boston. maybe there’s truth to his quote, he’s got 2 pretty reliable things for evidence
as a yankee fan, im dying for this trade to go down, get this guy out of my division but if you’re a sox fan (or even in the sox front office) there’s no way you can like this deal. Manny at #3 followed by Ortiz, doesn’t get much better than that, can’t believe they are actually thinking about doin this
July 30th, 2008 at 9:10 PM
apparently it’s Manny to the fish, Bay to the Sox and Hermida to the Pirates, with prospects intermingled in there.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:12 PM
jbay is gone after next year so getting something good for him would be a big win.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:13 PM
The Red Sox are INSANE… they’re going to miss him. They’ve won two world series thanks largely to Manny’s clutch bat.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:17 PM
agree with Jay – no matter how much of a problem this guy is, you can’t give him away. if the Red Sox don’t win the WS, or worse, miss the postseason, all the good chi that Theo built up will be gone
July 30th, 2008 at 9:21 PM
So the question is, Cortes, did you fiddle with your timestamp to make this a scoop for you?
/kidding of course
July 30th, 2008 at 9:22 PM
if what is being reported by le batard and many other red sox insiders that francona has told people “he hates manny ramirez” then maybe this deal makes sense.. the reason? if we agree manny is leaving after this year anyway, doesn’t it make sense to get a jason bay and a stud prospect like mike stanton for the future, as opposed to keeping manny and getting nothing.. i mean maybe they win another world series, maybe they dont, but theo’s job isn’t necessarily for the now so much as it is for the health of the franchise going forward
July 30th, 2008 at 9:24 PM
that movie MIRRORS looks scary as hell
my new song infatuation: The Kills, Sour Cherry
July 30th, 2008 at 9:29 PM
Can we please stop using the word “clutch” to describe Manny’s bat? He’s not clutch, he’s just good all the time.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:29 PM
Cortes – I’ll buy that argument. I just want Manny to stay in Boston ’cause I don’t like the Yankees. Other than that I could care less.
TBL – I love minor-league games. It’s ’90s night and I just heard “Waterfalls” over the PA system. I laughed heartily. And Mirrors does look good.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:30 PM
F-Hef – Good observation. Ortiz is the clutch one.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:30 PM
TBL, I just noticed what that music video was a response to. You have a creepy obsession…no, actually you have a problem.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:33 PM
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CLUTCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 30th, 2008 at 9:35 PM
clutch is as much of a myth as friendly hef
July 30th, 2008 at 9:39 PM
Gonzo – really? Performing under pressure is something some people can do and some can’t. Isn’t that what being clutch means? I’ll have to respectfully disagree.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:39 PM
quick rumor to drop: apparently Twins and Orioles have had talks about Brian Roberts
July 30th, 2008 at 9:42 PM
RDT, I know some other people can explain it better than I can. But I cannot at this time. I just don’t believe in it.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:42 PM
manny’s postseason stats the last few years disagree with you
Easier to say, ‘he’s the anti-A-rod when it counts?’
July 30th, 2008 at 9:43 PM
lol
still, it’s a money song
July 30th, 2008 at 9:45 PM
what is manny ramirez current contract?
July 30th, 2008 at 9:45 PM
fetch…I wonder why. Hasn’t Casilla been more than sufficiant for a rookie?
July 30th, 2008 at 9:47 PM
There are club options for the next 2 years at $20 Mil each. The team chooses whether to pick it up. If they don’t he’s a free agent. He wants those options wiped out if he’s traded.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:49 PM
During BBTN at 7pm, Peter Gammons was livid at Manny, stating it’s all about the money and nothing else. Manny wants to be a Free Agent so he can sign a $100 Million dollar deal.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:50 PM
cough
homer
cough
July 30th, 2008 at 9:52 PM
if he gets them wiped…the ultimate “fuck you” would be DH for NYY next year…any thoughts…i think this would be rather funny myself
July 30th, 2008 at 9:52 PM
I agree, TBL. Ive never seen Gammons act like that. Certainly not a professional tone.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:52 PM
haven’t we gone way past the point where if anybody wants objective analysis concerning the Red Sox, Peter Gammons shouldn’t even be in the room?
July 30th, 2008 at 9:52 PM
Gonzo – I’m open to discussion on the topic. Let me know if you can find a way to word it. Until then, clutch exists, just maybe not as often as people think.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:52 PM
What does clutch even mean? Is it how a player hits in the last 3 innings of a game? In the playoffs? With 2 strikes? And if so, does that mean that a player who’s clutch doesn’t really give a shit in the beginning of games and the regular season? Lazy bastard.
July 30th, 2008 at 9:56 PM
bigger myth:
clutch hitting
landon donovan being good
autism
July 30th, 2008 at 9:58 PM
His splits for the postseason: .269 .376 .513
His splits for the regular season: .312 .409 .590
yeah, I see alot of clutch there >.>
July 30th, 2008 at 9:58 PM
clutch is a subjective sports adjective
July 30th, 2008 at 9:59 PM
Happy – I suppose that’s the subjective part about clutch. Pressure situations aren’t always the same. A walk-off home run is clutch. I would even say that not making the final out of a 1-run game in the bottom of the ninth can be clutch. Certainly the guy who drives in the winning run in the bottom of the ninth is clutch.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Clutch > “Manny being Manny”
July 30th, 2008 at 10:03 PM
TG – If it’s not too much, could you kindly do his Boston splits vs. Cleveland splits?
July 30th, 2008 at 10:04 PM
If there is no clutch explain Tatis?
/don’t say steroids
July 30th, 2008 at 10:04 PM
@RDT4 – so essentially clutch is whatever you want it to be.
/I’m clutch
July 30th, 2008 at 10:06 PM
Oh and while I am happy Peter Gammons made a full recovery…Peter Gammons is no longer Peter Gammons…he holds his relationship with the Red Sox on his sleeve and doesn’t break many stories any more…He is still valuable and has great contacts…but he is not the same
July 30th, 2008 at 10:07 PM
Happy – I suppose I’ve got no rebuttle for you. But you really don’t think there’s a difference between someone hitting a walk off and someone striking out to end the same game?
July 30th, 2008 at 10:07 PM
@RDT4, I took this from Baseball Prospectus. This is what I agree with.
All major-league players have a demonstrated ability to perform under pressure. They’ve proven that by rising to the top of an enormous pyramid of players, tens of thousands of them, all trying to be one of the top 0.1% that gets to call themselves “major leaguers.” Within this group of elite, who have proven themselves to be the best in the world at their jobs, there is no discernable change in their abilities when runners are on base, or when the game is tied in extra innings, or when candy and costumes and pumpkins decorate the local GigaMart. The guys who are good enough to be in the majors are all capable of succeeding and failing in these situations, and they’re as likely to do one or the other in the clutch as they are at any other time. Over the course of a game, a month, a season or a career, there is virtually no evidence that any player or group of players possesses an ability to outperform his established level of ability in clutch situations, however defined.
Here is the full post which is trying to prove there are clutch players, but merely an opinion.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2656
July 30th, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Gonzo – That’s a solid argument. I’ll still continue to believe in clutch, but at least I know that those who feel differently have a good reason for it.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:14 PM
By the way, I am sorry for just agreeing with someone else’s opinion, rather than being able to form my own. But that paragraph sums it up perfectly.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:16 PM
@ gonzo
i liked it better when i believed in clutch
July 30th, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Gonzo – Hey, there’s a reason people get paid to write (still, barely). I won’t hold it against you.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Read the article. It says something like Paul Molitor and Tony Fernandez are the only players that were deemed clutch.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:20 PM
I am just saying – without reading the entire article…it makes sense…but you kind of just told me that there is no santa
July 30th, 2008 at 10:22 PM
That’s a dandy opinion from BP, and I’m sure those guys pay much, much closer attention to MLB than i do.
But i’ll maintain my opinion that Manny is a clutch hitter. And A-Rod isn’t. I’m sure someone can pull stats that say Manny isn’t clutch; and someone else will pull stats that say with two strikes and two out, there’s no better hitter in baseball. Sadly, I don’t have the time or energy to dive into that kind of argument, so i’ll settle for my pithy opinion: Manny is clutch.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Gonzo – Will do.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:24 PM
THERE IS A SANTA!
July 30th, 2008 at 10:24 PM
Actually I’m just having fun with you while watching the White Sox dominate the Twins. Hells yeah.
/I still don’t believe in clutch though.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:24 PM
i believe in clutch
July 30th, 2008 at 10:25 PM
Mikey, you were bound to find out about Santa. And the Easter Bunny. And God.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:26 PM
TBL – 60 percent of stats can be made to say whatever you want, 50 percent of the time.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:29 PM
so i’ll settle for my pithy opinion: Manny is clutch.
There goes TBL and his crazy baseball opinions again lol
July 30th, 2008 at 10:29 PM
I like that, RDT. And the other 40 percent work … 50% of the time?
BP’s latest: Done deal except for the naming of the prospects?
July 30th, 2008 at 10:29 PM
What a new twist to this story!
July 30th, 2008 at 10:30 PM
did we have to bring religion into this?…next thing youre going to tell me is that racism doesnt exist?
July 30th, 2008 at 10:31 PM
other random opinions:
-Red Lobster is the greatest large-scale chain restaurant in the country
-Thick crust pizza over thin crust at all times
-the Colts will miss the NFL postseason in 2008-2009
-Vanilla Sky is a damn good movie
-Adam Sandler makes terrible movies
July 30th, 2008 at 10:36 PM
TBL – I love those DirecTV commercials.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:38 PM
-Vanilla Sky is a damn good movie
The sweet isn’t as sweet, without the sour.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:40 PM
TBL – Happy Gilmore, The Waterboy, Big Daddy, Billy Madison. All reasons to strongly disagree with your last random opinion.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:40 PM
Outback = greatest chain. That place is amazing.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:40 PM
my opinions:
-kittens and puppies are cute
-the red sox won’t make it out of the first round of the playoffs if they trade Manny
-women are smarter than men
July 30th, 2008 at 10:43 PM
Chilis > Outback > Red Lobster
July 30th, 2008 at 10:44 PM
billy madison is on of the greatest…
veronica vaughn…so hot…want to touch the heinie….owwwwooowww
peeing your pants is the coolest!
and the best part…
everyone in the room is now dumber….
how can you hate billy madison?
July 30th, 2008 at 10:46 PM
Chilli’s fucking sucks.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:48 PM
You stay classy, Sportsgal.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:49 PM
-Red Lobster is the greatest large-scale chain restaurant in the country
Red Lobster sucks. I believed in clutch until you made that, terrible opinion. I believed that Nick Anderson was the greatest proof of anti-clutch in sports history. But, saying that Red Lobster is great, I don’t know what to believe anymore.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:50 PM
Mcdonald’s is the greatest chain. long live fast food.
/28 percent body fat
July 30th, 2008 at 10:52 PM
I’ve never been a fan of Red Lobster. I’d rather go to Joe’s Crab Shack.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:53 PM
seafood is probably the last cuisine i would want from a chain. i can’t judge though, i haven’t been to red lobster in maybe 15 years
July 30th, 2008 at 10:54 PM
Deep Dish Pizza owns all!
July 30th, 2008 at 10:54 PM
Do any of you have Pappadeaux’s where you live? It’s great.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:55 PM
RDT, are you considered by your peers part of Main Stream Media? Good stuff man. When you get a chance, take a look at this link. Retrosheet did some number crunching. OK, they did A LOT of number crunching. Not trying to beat a dead horse or force my opinion on you, but this is a great read. This is something you print out and read on the shitter. (Pardon my French)
http://www.retrosheet.org/Research/RuaneT/clutch_art.htm
July 30th, 2008 at 10:56 PM
ive only been to pappadeauxs in dallas
July 30th, 2008 at 11:07 PM
Pappadeaux is unreal. so good. Used to go there all the time when I lived outside Chicago during high school.
July 30th, 2008 at 11:13 PM
Arlington Heights? I work across the street from that one.
July 30th, 2008 at 11:16 PM
Cool. It was the one in Oak Brook though.
That place was great. We’d go on friday nights and just eat at open tables by the bar instead of waiting for 1.5 hours.
July 30th, 2008 at 11:16 PM
Mmmmm. Love Pappadeaux. Had it in Dallas about two months ago.
PLEASE Boston. Trade Manny so that your run as dominant can end. They are so ingratiated with their successes that they don’t realize WHY they are successful. #24 has a LOT to do with that offense being lethal. The Yankees will have become favorites to win the East in 2 days because A. The Rays sat on their hands and screwed up a great chance to better themselves. B. The Red Sox pissed away their best hitter and left gaping holes in their lineup.
Thread Jack: Tonight, Indians’ catcher Kelly Shoppach became only the 7th guy to have 5 Extra Base Hits in a game. He’s 5-5 with 3 2B’s and 2 HR’s. And, he’s on deck in the 10th…
July 30th, 2008 at 11:20 PM
I’m having Pappadeaux for lunch tomorrow. My co-workers are paying. What should I get?
July 30th, 2008 at 11:21 PM
the asshat sandwich
July 30th, 2008 at 11:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrlLmTh32KI
July 30th, 2008 at 11:30 PM
is pappadeuxs mentioned in sir mix alots ‘jump on it’? i always thought it was ‘poppa doughs’
July 30th, 2008 at 11:31 PM
The Gumbo was great. It’s been quite some time since I went though.
July 30th, 2008 at 11:31 PM
Apache > Jump On It
July 30th, 2008 at 11:31 PM
go fuck yourself
July 30th, 2008 at 11:33 PM
mole –
I just looked up the lyrics and it says “Poppa Doughs”. Of course, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t Pappadeux. There is some questionable spelling in the rest of the Jump On It lyrics as well.
July 30th, 2008 at 11:35 PM
Very ornery today, moleman. Are the 10 year olds treating you like a n00b on Civilization?
July 30th, 2008 at 11:37 PM
no i just dont know what apache is so i went to my fallback
i cant play civ online because its a bootleg copy. and yes i actually did just get my ass handed to me by the computer in it, then proceeded to get my ass handed to me in day of defeat, its been a rough night in casa del moleman
July 31st, 2008 at 12:01 AM
Gonzo – I’m actually a correspondent for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, so I’m definitely part of the MSM. But, I’m a blogger too, so I guess I’m trying to be that new breed of sportswriter everyone’s talking about.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:04 AM
So, Buzz Bissinger would spit on his hand before he shakes yours? That’s some shaky ground there.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:17 AM
I might be late for this…
HEre’s why I think clutch doesn’t exist in baseball. Baseball is the one game where luck plays a major factor in your success. How many times do you see a guy scorch a ball right at someone and he’s out? So he’s not clutch if he makes an out? That’s ridiculous. He hit the ball hard.
the one example I bring up is David Wright in Boston in ‘06. Top 8, 1st and second down 2, he hits a screamer in the gap that Coco Crisp makes an amazing catch on. Would have tied the game. If Crisp doesn’t make the catch Wright is clutch. But since he did that goes in the un-clutch category?
Makes no sense. At least in basketball you have total control over the situation. Take a guy to the hole, hit a jumper, so on. The ball does what you want it to. There’s no such thing in baseball. You can hit a rocket right at someone. Clutch does not exist in baseball, I stick by that forever.
July 31st, 2008 at 12:46 AM
I had no idea the clutch vs. no clutch would create such a good discussion. Hell, everyone who’s weighed in has made a valid point, I think. People who don’t think a real, civil discussion can happen online should read this thread (cough* Buzz Bissinger *cough).
Speaking of that guy, Gonzo, I suppose it is shaky ground. But I’m still young enough to try and break new ground before I get totally blindsided by life.
July 31st, 2008 at 1:07 AM
Texas Roadhouse is the best chain, their steaks blow Outbacks out of the water.
if this deal goes down it will be a crazy last couple of months in the NL East
July 31st, 2008 at 1:11 AM
Ha, I’m in Buffalo Grove, at least for 3 months of the years, so I guess we’re neighbors. Used to actually play soccer for the Aces for a few years before switching to Palatine.
That’s a big reason for me why I doubt clutch in baseball. The other big factor in my mind, which is sort of a corollary to luck is how much control the pitcher has over a batter and how little success batters typically have.
First part first- Pitcher’s have control: Let’s put it this way, if a pitcher hits his spots without missing, he’s going to render most hitters useless. The good hitters are the ones that cash in on mistakes or slight errors, the great one are the one that cash in on those mistakes and can still hold their own on the great pitches. Plus, say Manny is up in the bottom of the ninth, the pitcher can tip toe around him by pitching out of or at the edge of the zone. In that case, he takes Manny’s perceived clutchness right out of the eqaution.
Now the second part – batter typically have little success: Even the best hitter’s will get a hit only 1/3 times. And we’re only looking at hits here, because I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a walk being clutch. So say hypothetically that a player can in fact raise his performance in clutch situations. Over a long span of at bats that performance would be raised only marginally at best. Even if he were able to raise himself to a .400 hitter (which is a preposterous growth) that clutch player would still screw up more often times than not.
I hope that makes sense, I’m rather tired and therefore don’t want to reread what I wrote.