HOF: One Obviously Belonged, One Maybe Not
Baseball January 13th. 2009, 1:00pm
Rickey Henderson: Twenty-eight baseball writers did not choose Rickey Henderson on their Hall of Fame ballots. That’s just stupid.
Imagine the ideal leadoff hitter. Picture him in your mind. He’s not as good as Rickey Henderson.
Leadoff hitters need to get on base. Rickey Henderson had 15 seasons with an on base percentage greater than .400, and that excludes three additional seasons above .394.
His OBP was so phenomenal that he lead the league in OPS as a leadoff man in 1990. His career adjusted OPS+ is 127, higher than Andre Dawson’s 119 and nearly equal to Jim Rice’s 128. A more indicative stat would weight OBP heavier than slugging, making Henderson’s numbers even more impressive.
Once leadoff hitters reach base, they should cause a ruckus. Rickey Henderson did it better than anyone. He stole 1,406 bases over his career with a success rate better than 80 percent. From 1980 to 1991, he led the league in steals in eleven out of twelve seasons. He finished fifth in 1987, despite playing only 95 games.
He was exceedingly difficult to get out, and made you pay when you couldn’t.
Rickey Henderson may not have remembered anyone else’s name, but everyone else sure knew his.
Jim Rice: I was five years old when Jim Rice retired. I never saw him play. For me he was never “the most feared hitter of his era†or “the Hammer of God sent to scourge the Yankees.€ My vision of Rice is not enhanced by this direct experience, but nor, one could argue, is it deceived by it.
From 1977 to 1979 and again in 1983, Rice was an elite power hitter. In those four seasons, he posted an adjusted OPS+ of 141 or higher and hit 39 or more home runs. In his other seasons he ranged from better than average to very good, generally hitting about 25 home runs with OPS+ of 115-135. He was a very good (borderline great) hitter.
Rice’s presence doesn’t stain the Hall of Fame, but nor does he add to it. He’s not in the discussion for best player at his position. He would not make an all-time Red Sox outfield. His less heralded teammate Dwight Evans has nearly as much of an offensive hall of fame case as Rice and was a better defender.
There is just no convincing statistical argument for Jim Rice. His defenders such as Gordon Edes [Ed. A noted Boston homer] resort to stats such as “only three hitters have had three seasons of 200 or more hits and 35 or more home runs: Alex Rodriguez, Vladimir Guerrero and Rice.€
There’s a reason for that. Most elite hitters weren’t pitched to enough to get 200 hits. Mickey Mantle never did, neither did Ted Williams. It’s obviously not a benchmark for determining great hitting.
And while we are on the subject of Ted Williams, Rice’s best season according to adjusted OPS+ was 1978 (157). Williams had above a 160 OPS+ in eighteen of his nineteen seasons. He had a season worse than Rice’s best just once as a 40-year-old in 1959. He was so embarrassed, that in his final season, at 41, he put up a 190. Those two men do not belong in the same Hall of Fame.
101 Responses to “HOF: One Obviously Belonged, One Maybe Not”
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January 13th, 2009 at 1:07 PM
Ya mean the same Hall of Fame that includes Phil Rizzuto? Nice try denigrating one Red Sox by fluffing another one, but if you were five when Rice retired, maybe you should defer to people who actually saw him play, little fella
January 13th, 2009 at 1:09 PM
There’s a reason for that. Most elite hitters weren’t pitched to enough to get 200 hits. Mickey Mantle never did, neither did Ted Williams. It’s obviously not a benchmark for determining great hitting.
The thought of Jim Rice being in the HOF must have Ted William’s head turning over in its Cyrovac
/science
January 13th, 2009 at 1:11 PM
As much as I pretty much hate everything Red Sox, I love that Rice got in. Badass player.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:11 PM
Did Intern Bill get fired?
I remember Jim Rice because he tore the stitches off the ball in RBI batting clean-up.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:12 PM
If Rice hadn’t made it this year the Vet committee would have let him in eventually.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:14 PM
Laid off. It’s a tough economy.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:14 PM
Everyone has to have stats similar to Ted Williams to get in the Hall? Weird criteria.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:15 PM
/Get off my lawn’d
January 13th, 2009 at 1:16 PM
The 2008 Interns are dead, Long Live the 2009 Interns.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Ty Duffy is Intern Bill. Seems pretty obvious.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:20 PM
Watching someone play hurts your chances of evaluating him correctly rather than helping it.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Ted Williams doesn’t belong in Willie Mays Hall of Fame.
/science’d
January 13th, 2009 at 1:24 PM
maybe you should defer to people who actually saw him play, little fella
/Get off my lawn’d
+1 Lance lol
Jim Rice: I was five years old when Jim Rice retired. I never saw him play
TBL: Not that I care, but Rice retired in 1989, meaning you were born in 1984. I thought you were like 31-32? You’re too young to be lying about your age. Leave it for guys like me.
/this stupid comment coming from a guy who saw Rice play 100 times in person and was about 25 when he retired
//sigh
January 13th, 2009 at 1:24 PM
I wasn’t convinced until I saw that stat that read Jim Rice led all AL hitters in HR’s, RBI’s, hits, SLG, for a twelve year span. This puts Rice in perspective with the era in which he played.
And no, this doesn’t mean Grace should get in for leading the majors in hits for the 90’s.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:26 PM
It’s pretty f’ing tough to get into Baseball’s HoF. If you’re voted in (not chosen by the Vet Committee), there’s a great chance it’s warranted.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:28 PM
@ill: Not so fast, my friend.
/Bruce Sutter
January 13th, 2009 at 1:28 PM
It’s a good feeling, collecting a few +1’s over the past few days.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:28 PM
The 2008 Interns are dead, May God Have Mercy on the 2009 Interns.
Ty Duffy is Intern Bill. Seems pretty obvious.
Yep.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:29 PM
jpq, ty duffy wrote this, not TBL. I didnt realize his interns were such youngin’s though. Respect your elders, kids!
January 13th, 2009 at 1:31 PM
@Lance: -1 for bragging.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:31 PM
I love old people.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:33 PM
uh oh, cracker jack is a cougar. More competition for sportsgal.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:33 PM
I found THE round-up pic. Might be a lil NSFW.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:33 PM
jpq, ty duffy wrote this, not TBL. I didnt realize his interns were such youngin’s though. Respect your elders, kids!
@crackerjack: thx, didn’t look/notice. Must have had a “senior moment”. I know Ty and a lot of the posters are WAAAYYYY younger than me. I only get access to the site through my AARP card, and I have to leave at 4 every day to catch the “Early Bird”-lol
January 13th, 2009 at 1:34 PM
Thanks for keeping me in check Nick
January 13th, 2009 at 1:36 PM
Lance -
+1 for graciousness.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:37 PM
You hit it. Players should not be compared to other players in other era’s. How did he do compared to the players he played against. And if you are going to compare future potential HOF’s to Ted Williams, then you might as well shut the doors.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:38 PM
+1 for thanking him Lance.
/suck it NickP
January 13th, 2009 at 1:41 PM
fetch, chances are almost every single person here has gone through puberty which makes us all older than you. Just because we’re old enough to rent a car doesn’t mean we’re cougars.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:43 PM
@sportsgal: Rawr!
January 13th, 2009 at 1:46 PM
What about guinnessgirl?
January 13th, 2009 at 1:48 PM
-1 sportsgal for being in denial
January 13th, 2009 at 1:49 PM
Hmm. Was I supposed to include “gal” or “girl” on the end of my screen name here?
January 13th, 2009 at 1:52 PM
Why rent a car when you can steel one?
/Tampa’d
//Stigs’d
January 13th, 2009 at 1:52 PM
Hmm. Was I supposed to include “gal†or “girl†on the end of my screen name here?
naw, unless you want tampa to think you’re gay
January 13th, 2009 at 1:54 PM
+1 ill.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:54 PM
Yes, I believe it’s part of the TBL Commenter Bill of Rights. The “gal” or “girl” allows the guys on here to freely accuse you of pretending to be a girl.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:54 PM
The day everyone called me a home was pretty fun.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:55 PM
Aaaand home = homo.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Correction, I didn’t call you a homo, I asked if you were one
January 13th, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Didn’t these 28 idiots not vote for Rickey simply because they didn’t want him to be unanimous in “Year 1″? They do this for everyone, right? Only Gehrig was ever unanimous first ballot HOF.
It may be stupid, but you shouldn’t be surprised.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:57 PM
For all the bitching all the baseball hall of fame, it’s still the most exclusive and best run of the three biggest sports. Football has quotas and basketball has every college coach who wins one single title (basically). Bert Blyleven will get in eventually. Am I supposed to feel sorry for him because he can’t change his personal business card until that day? Or that he won’t (maybe) be alive for the honor? The guy had his balls shined for 20-plus years as a major league player.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:57 PM
The day everyone called me a home was pretty fun.
@cj: don’t sweat it. To Tampa, you’re either a ‘ho or a homo.
January 13th, 2009 at 1:57 PM
Sponge I’m really glad I decided to look at that picture on my phone.
/Face down, ass up
January 13th, 2009 at 2:00 PM
Sponge I’m really glad I decided to look at that picture on my phone.
/Face down, ass up
I always wondered what it would look like for a 6′7″ guy to do a little doggie style.
/lucky bastard
January 13th, 2009 at 2:00 PM
pictures of Mz. Lima have to be #1 reason to buy a phone with internet.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:02 PM
i read in kurkjian’s article yeterday about rickey that his steals lead over lou brock is greater than the current stolen base total of the active leader, juan pierre.
that’s just astonishing.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:03 PM
Per Wikipedia no one has ever been unanimous. How fucking stupid is that?
January 13th, 2009 at 2:05 PM
this is one of the reasons why the voting process for the HOF is so fucking stupid. you know there’s going to be some asshole who decides not to vote Greg Maddux into the Hall just for the attention.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:06 PM
almost as stupid as ron santo, catfish hunter, jim rice and paul molitor being in the HoF.
/and cal ripken too…
January 13th, 2009 at 2:06 PM
jpq-I prefer home thanks
January 13th, 2009 at 2:08 PM
Fixed that for you.
Hey Spencer, Santo isn’t in the Hall in case you were wondering.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:09 PM
Ron Santo isn’t in the Hall of Fame.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:09 PM
/and cal ripken too…
Go f yourself.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:10 PM
Catfish Hunter should be in the name HOF.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:11 PM
yea…i was reading something earlier and his name got stuck in my head…brain fart.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:11 PM
Sandberg shouldn’t be either
/piling on
Ripken should be, though. Although the hero worship thing is a little much
January 13th, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Rusty Kuntz agrees.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:13 PM
as does Dick Trickle
January 13th, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Cal Ripken is a faggot. I bet he banged Brady Anderson once or twenty times.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:14 PM
Shut your mouth
January 13th, 2009 at 2:15 PM
I’ve maintained that if you’re the best player at your position for at least a decade, you should be in. During the 80’s, there was no better than Sandberg at 2B.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:19 PM
What about me?
/Lou Whitaker
January 13th, 2009 at 2:19 PM
Gehrig was elected in a special session, they waved the waiting period. He was unanimous. He’s still the only one to ever be unanimous the first time he was eligible to be voted for. Not Mantle, Mays, or Aaron. So yeah, not Rickey either.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:21 PM
Add Spence’s mom to that list as well… Or maybe it’s his dad, since you’re accusing him of being gay.
/Spence has some serious Cal issues to deal with.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:21 PM
And yeah, I agree these traditions are annoying. But Rickey not being unanimous has nothing to do with anyone feeling him unworthy of the Hall.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:23 PM
Gehrig was elected in a special session, they waved the waiting period. He was unanimous. He’s still the only one to ever be unanimous the first time he was eligible to be voted for. Not Mantle, Mays, or Aaron. So yeah, not Rickey either.
Guess Rickey needed to have a disease named after him
January 13th, 2009 at 2:26 PM
While Whitaker’s overall numbers certainly compare to Sandberg’s, and he was an above-average defender, Sandberg’s great years were much better. 1 MVP award and 2 other top-five finishes. In 1990 he finished fourth even though his numbers were incredibly similar to Bonds’:
Bonds: .971 OPS, 33HR, 114 RBI
Sandberg: .913 OPS, 40 HR, 100 RBI
January 13th, 2009 at 2:26 PM
I bet if Rickey was white he would have had some more votes. Some people still must be mad about that whole Jackie Robinson fiasco.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:26 PM
Wally…my issue with Cal is that he had 5 great seasons out of 20+. i don’t care if he was a “prototype” or whatever…he was a mediocre player who, at the expense of his team, decided to play when he should’ve rested all for some stupid streak.
my view of the HoF is different, im, as nick says, a “small Hall” guy. i hate the fact that there are “fringe” guys in the HoF, it disgusts me. i hate the politics and the voter ignorance. i hate the fact that cal ripken was an above average player at best who only got voted in because he had some stupid streak that added exactly NOTHING to the game of baseball.
fuck cal ripken. you know what i get for not taking a day off? aside from added stress? JACK SHIT. what’d he get? a legacy inflated by some bullshit record.
lets just canonize him now…he showed up every day 1/2 of the year to play a game for millions of dollars. awesome.
AND STOP LOOKING AT ME WITH YOUR CREEPY EYES, CAL.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:27 PM
nope. we’ll just get new interns each year.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:28 PM
Barry Larkin, Roberto Alomar, and Edgar Martinez are up for next year. Pretty intriguing.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:30 PM
I saw Rice play, and it’s a complete travesty that it took this long for him to get into the HOF. For 10 years, this guy was the most feared power hitter in the game, and by that standard alone, he belongs. This bullshit about him not being “media friendly” just doesn’t fly in my book. It’s just a cop-out a lot of voters use because they can’t come up with anything else.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:31 PM
Spence are you saying you want a cal ripken jersey for your birthday, or do you still have your heart set on that quan cosby one?
January 13th, 2009 at 2:32 PM
I know this argument’s been made before but…
He was a shortstop who’s first ten seasons included a ROY and 2 MVP awards. He had 20+ HR’s each of those seasons and 90+ RBI 5 of those years. Even without the streak, he’d be a HoFer.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:32 PM
@NSR: I don’t know if I buy your argument.
Whitaker had 9 seasons of >120 OPS+ (amazing for a 2B).
Sandberg had 6 such seasons.
Perhaps more importantly, Whitaker only had 1 year where he was below average with the stick. Sandberg had 6.
Sandberg may have had a better 4 year peak, but it was almost 50/50 that Ryne was going to have a sub-par year hitting.
Whitaker had a better 5-6-7, whatever year peak, by a pretty nice margin.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:35 PM
Spence… Good explanation of why.
My argument for is multi-faceted.
1. He was the best player at his position for almost a decade. Ozzie was different great, but I would have taken Cal before him. Trammell had great years, but I still would have taken Cal if looking long term.
2. He redefined the position. Before Cal, SS was a punch and judy hitter that could field his position (Yes, I know Ernie was before Cal). Cal proved that a big guy could effectively field at SS at an above average clip AND could hit in the middle of the order. That led the way for bigger, more athletic guys to play SS and change the game.
3. That mindless streak. Say what you will about it later in his career (when he definitely should have sat at times), the fact that he beat the most unbreakable streak in history says something about his ability. That really can’t be discounted.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:37 PM
I ‘ll give you the consistency argument for Whitaker any day. But I think Sandberg’s peak was much higher than Whitaker’s peak.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:39 PM
Forest Whitaker > Lou Whitaker
/ghostdog was a good movie
January 13th, 2009 at 2:39 PM
I’d also add, if Whitaker had played in Chicago, he’d get a lot more love than he does.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:39 PM
so…being an above average hitter for his first 10 years then trending downward (except for that one season he got into brady anderson’s medicine cabinet) and above average fielder means he belongs in the hall of fame? gotcha.
and he doesn’t have the most unbreakable streak in sports…byron nelson does with his 11 straight tournament win streak in golf. some player can play 20+ seasons without taking a break if they really wanted too. not even tiger can touch lord byron.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:41 PM
As a SS? Yes.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:42 PM
Before the writers made a special election for Gehrig he was voted for in 1936 and only received 22.6% of the vote.
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/playerVoting.do?playerId=114680
Tough crowd.
I didn’t know Corky Simpson was that old.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:46 PM
in an era with no black golfers. this record is racist.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:48 PM
Of course, Gehrig didn’t retire until 1939
January 13th, 2009 at 2:49 PM
byron nelson does with his 11 straight tournament win streak in golf. some player can play 20+ seasons without taking a break if they really wanted too. not even tiger can touch lord byron.
“Lord Byron” is the Cal Ripken (in your terms) of golf. That “streak” amounted to a bunch of wins on Texas and North Carolina munis while all the major players were in WWII and he was beating up on really inferior fields.
That win streak is golf’s version of Ripkin’s
January 13th, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Of course, Gehrig didn’t retire until 1939.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:52 PM
jpq…you’re damn right, which is why it’s truly unbreakable and about as meaningful as cal’s gay streak.
January 13th, 2009 at 2:58 PM
too bad that “tough crowd” from the 30s got all soft.
Hall of Very Good
January 13th, 2009 at 2:59 PM
spencer: I agree above w/ you on the overt attention he got on the streak. I just thought, INCLUDING (not because) the streak, he played well enough to get it.
I still don’t think Sandberg was HOF worthy. I too think a lot of these guys shouldn’t get it, that the HOF is too easy to get in.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:01 PM
spence -
Good point. It’s a worthless streak. Every major leaguer not named Cal Ripken Jr. or Lou Gehrig thinks so too or they would have played EVERY SINGLE F’NG DAY FOR 15 YEARS. Worthless.
And as mentioned earlier, his numbers as a SHORTSTOP, are beyond reproach. Since voting is affected by position, that does make a difference.
/Bitch about Rabbit Maranville and Phil Rizzuto all you want. I agree.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:02 PM
TBL: next thing you know, they’ll be letting scum like JC Romero in!
January 13th, 2009 at 3:06 PM
+1 cracker jack! LOL!
January 13th, 2009 at 3:09 PM
Sportsdork
Looks like your right, if you can’t trust the HOF website who can you trust?
January 13th, 2009 at 3:21 PM
@captain — Yeah, it confused the hell out of me. I’m sure there is an explanation.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:49 PM
Rice in the HOF is a disgrace.
January 13th, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Being feared now gets you in?
Albert Belle would be the first unanimous person elected if that were the basis.
January 13th, 2009 at 4:14 PM
The stat I used to compare Rice to Ted was adjusted OPS+. It’s not perfect, but it is reasonably decent for assessing how dominant players were compared to average in their eras, thereby leveling the playing field when comparing across eras. It’s not just that Rice was not as good as Ted Williams. He’s nowhere in the ballpark. Ted Williams at his inexperienced worst was a superior player to Rice at his best.
If Williams is the best hitter, and Jim Rice, discussed solely for his hitting, can’t touch Ted with a telephone pole. He’s not a great player. He was a very good and worthy of mention, but he shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame. The HOF is for gods, and Rice, no disrespect to him, was a very good clod.
January 13th, 2009 at 5:03 PM
If Williams is the best hitter, and Jim Rice, discussed solely for his hitting, can’t touch Ted with a telephone pole. He’s not a great player. He was a very good and worthy of mention, but he shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame. The HOF is for gods, and Rice, no disrespect to him, was a very good clod.
Even though I think Rice was worthy, I agree w/ you 100%. My rationale is that the HOF ISN”T for the Gods anymore, thus Rice qualifies. If it was held to yours (and my) preferred standard, about 50 guys (including Rice) would be getting eviction notices, and a lot of future members would never get the invitation.
January 13th, 2009 at 6:36 PM
By the way, the fact that Tim Raines only got 22% of the vote is almost as big of a crime as Blyleven not getting in. Steve Phillips just called him the 2nd best leadoff hitter ever and then said he shouldn’t get in. What a fucking retard.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:01 PM
By the way, the fact that Tim Raines only got 22% of the vote is almost as big of a crime as Blyleven not getting in. Steve Phillips just called him the 2nd best leadoff hitter ever and then said he shouldn’t get in. What a fucking retard.
Raines has ZERO chance of EVER getting in? You think a bunch of middle aged to senior aged white guys are going to vote for a guy who was a dick to them, did copious amounts of blow, and self-destructed his talent and career?
In Nirvana, that shit doesn’t matter, but here on Earth, it does. Just ask Pete Rose, Shoeless Shoe Jackson, Mark McGuire and soon about 20 other guys like Palmeiro, Clemens, Sosa, and Bonds that ain’t ever getting in.
Not saying I agree, just saying that’s what’s gonna happen. Book it.
Besides, “Rock” Raines had the most appropo nickname of all time
/crack is whack’ed