Ken Rosenthal vs. the Sabermetric Community: This Time, It’s Personal
Baseball, Media Gossip/Musings September 17th. 2009, 9:15am
Ken Rosenthal on the AL MVP: It’s subjective, dammit, and you sabermetric geeks (and you too, Posnanski!) can take your VORP and win shares and go fly a kite. Rosenthal actually likes Mauer, but loses us when he says his top alternative is … Kevin Youkilis. Other names: Derek Jeter (hyperbole alert of Schefter proportions: “the most controversial non-controversial figure in sports”), Kendry Morales of the Angels, and A-Rod. The Yanks are 79-38 since Kate Hudson’s boyfriend returned from injury. Before you jump, one important factor to keep in mind: ALL BASEBALL AWARDS ARE SUBJECTIVE.
I’m writing because of the cyber-shoutdowns of anyone who offers dissent, anyone who dares suggest Derek Jeter, Kevin Youkilis or whoever is a legitimate alternative to Mauer. Taking a contrary position does not make me just another unenlightened member of the MSM (translation: mainstream media). But it will subject me to a certain level of scorn for rejecting SGT (translation: sabermetric groupthink) …
Here’s the problem: Sabermetricians were ignored for so long, they had to shout to be heard. Now they are getting heard — properly heard in the highest levels of baseball media and front offices. But some continue to shout, dismissing those who disagree as ignorant dolts …
Last I checked, it’s a free country. Last I checked, the MVP is a subjective choice. Yes, voters from the Baseball Writers’ Association of America occasionally screw up. But the beauty of the award, as outlined by the instructions given to voters, is “there is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means.” Which, of course, drives sabermetricians nuts …
The award is not for highest VORP. It is not for most win shares, most runs created, most wins above replacement player. It is for something that no one can quite define, and — goodness gracious! — voters sometimes apply different interpretations from year to year …
I just want to have a nice, civil discussion about a fascinating MVP race, a discussion that includes number geeks sitting in their basements, overworked hacks in press boxes across America and fans of all ages, colors and philosophies.
A civil discussion on the internet? About anything? Good luck, Kenny.
Our ballot, which you will obviously disagree with:
1. Jeter, Yankees
2. Mauer, Twins
3. Teixeira, Yankees
4. Youkilis, Red Sox
5. Cabrera, Tigers
127 Responses to “Ken Rosenthal vs. the Sabermetric Community: This Time, It’s Personal”
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September 17th, 2009 at 9:18 AM
First, Rosenthal is disingenuous. Mauer’s argument is not because he’s leading in relatively obscure stats like VORP. It’s because he’s leading in regularly accessible stats like batting average, on base percentage in slugging percentage. As a catcher.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:20 AM
Second, I’m willing to listen to arguments besides statistics. When you find one that more tangibly relates to winning baseball games than fairy dust and grab-ass skills let me know.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:20 AM
From one of the FJM things at Deadspin yesterday:
September 17th, 2009 at 9:20 AM
You’ve got to be fucking kidding about Jeter.
May I refer you to:
1. Common sense
2. The FJM reunion at Deadspin
3. The doctor for a CAT scan
September 17th, 2009 at 9:21 AM
small sample sized
/RD’d
September 17th, 2009 at 9:23 AM
They really need to change the name of this award to “Best Overall Player” because this shit really gets old and often times, the player with the best season gets whored.
And that list is garbage, TBL.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:23 AM
tbl’s “real list:
1. Jeter
2. Teixeiera
3. A-Rod
4. Swisher
5. Matsui
Cy Young:
1. CC
2. Rivera
2. Burnett
3. Joba
September 17th, 2009 at 9:24 AM
Youk is automatically disqualified due to getting the beat down by a 135lb Porcello.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:27 AM
That line made me cry. Only player worth debating in this is Greinke
September 17th, 2009 at 9:27 AM
I’m guessing someone interviews Rosenthal about this on television and he is both very deliberate and very patronizing.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:28 AM
Third: I hate Rich Rod, unless he wins games, then I love him.
/duffy’d
September 17th, 2009 at 9:28 AM
You don’t like Span, fetch?
September 17th, 2009 at 9:29 AM
I love Span, ill. He’s my favorite player in fact.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:30 AM
very very good point
September 17th, 2009 at 9:31 AM
Jeter?
/more coffee!
September 17th, 2009 at 9:32 AM
Third: I hate Rich Rod, unless he wins games, then I love him.
/duffy’d
ty: your question from yesterday has been answered affirmatively
September 17th, 2009 at 9:33 AM
Jeter? If the award was for quality notches on the bedpost, then yes Jeter is the MVP.
Mauer, This team would be behind the Royals if Mauer wasn’t on this team.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:33 AM
1. Jeter, Yankees
Jeter is already going to pollute Cooperstown at some point, let’s not throw another empty beer can in that ditch.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:33 AM
Rosensquirrel!
September 17th, 2009 at 9:34 AM
It’s clear that I am his nemesis. I don’t know that that means he is mine.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:34 AM
now that morneau is out for the season this is mauer’s award to lose. he and miggy are the only players that won’t split votes with a teammate, like “jeets” will with Tex and A-rod.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:35 AM
The Marlins MVP this season is Jeff Conine. It’s a lifetime achievement award really, but the man bleeds teal.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:36 AM
is cc the cy young favorite now?
September 17th, 2009 at 9:36 AM
agree with Duffy’s first comment. you don’t need to look at the more obscure measures to pick Mauer (even they point to Mauer, though). the one’s that writers get also point to Mauer. and he plays a more difficult, demanding defensive position than any of the other names. i can’t understand how you can argue differently.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:37 AM
Jeter > Teixeria
/science in spite of math’d
September 17th, 2009 at 9:38 AM
I’m somewhere between I Don’t give a FUCK and Who Gives a SHIT about post season awards. And even further away with the opinion of Rosenthal
September 17th, 2009 at 9:38 AM
Isn’t Swisher the one that changed the mood in the clubhouse? He’s the MVP in my eyes. He and Bernie Williams.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:39 AM
I think Ted Kennedy should be AL MVP. After all, he’s never won one right? Lifetime achievement award.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:39 AM
He’s Jeter! He has the most hits ever by a Yankee! He’s up there with Ruth, Gehrig, and Mantle! He’s Jeter!
September 17th, 2009 at 9:39 AM
And he will take 20 minutes to finish one sentence.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:40 AM
And honestly, I agree with e man. Hell I almost want Jeter to win so we can get 5,000 articles on why he didn’t deserve it. I’ll take the better player and no MVP over the worse player with the MVP anyday.
/sort of like 2006
September 17th, 2009 at 9:40 AM
Isn’t Swisher the one that changed the mood in the clubhouse? He’s the MVP in my eyes
He’s playing Johnny Damon circa 2003, since Johhny Damon had it written in his Stankees contract he won’t do any sequels
September 17th, 2009 at 9:40 AM
who wins the paul o’neil hard nosed intensity award?
September 17th, 2009 at 9:41 AM
2nded
Daniel Murphy
September 17th, 2009 at 9:43 AM
2nded
then why’d you write a post about it?
September 17th, 2009 at 9:45 AM
who wins the paul o’neil hard nosed intensity award?
BOBBY, always and forver
/hyena’d
September 17th, 2009 at 9:45 AM
the MSM vs. Sabremetric angle slays me. and rosenthal went hard at them, IMO … while attempting to offer an olive branch
September 17th, 2009 at 9:45 AM
So he could put Jeter at the top of his list, and watch people come out of the woodwork to blast him for it. We’re all so predictable.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:46 AM
god bless rosenthal! if i wanted to be bored with numerical graffiti, i’d give my accountant a call. or worse: a math teacher.
i too don’t give a rat’s ass about individual postseason awards. the only trophy i give a crap about is the one my team hoists aloft amid sprays of champagne and bad beer after winning the world series.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:46 AM
the MSM vs. Sabremetric angle slays me. and rosenthal went hard at them, IMO … while attempting to offer an olive branch
okay, but you also gave us a list, so you obviously have thought about it
September 17th, 2009 at 9:47 AM
I don’t necessarily agree with Rosenthal, but, this was one of the best statements written about new statistics and what it has done to baseball discussions.
I think a better example of Rosenthal’s point than the AL MVP race was when the Phillies signed Raul Ibanez last year. Seemed like it broke down into people who thought it could be a potential improvement over Burrell and stats folks who thought it was an insane move and vehemently said so.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:48 AM
OT
TBL, have you put the GQ article by the former bush speechwriter up anywhere? it’s just, wow
end OT
September 17th, 2009 at 9:50 AM
I’m somewhere between I Don’t give a FUCK and Who Gives a SHIT about post season awards
Are you crazy?!? I look forward to my sportin’ my [insert over hyped player's na] 2009 AL MVP t-shirt next season!
/Yanks’d
//Sawx’d
///BSPN’d
September 17th, 2009 at 9:51 AM
SS no, i dont think i’ve seen it.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:52 AM
subjectivity is a double edged sword.
IF YOU CANNOT COME UP WITH A REASONABLE ARGUMENT ABOUT WHY SOMEONE DESERVES THE MVP AWARD, YOU DESERVE TO BE CALLED AN IDIOT.
anyone clamoring for jeter to be the MVP doesn’t have a case to stand on. neither does anyone saying tex should be one.
sure, it’s subjective, but only if you can prove your point…otherwise, any yankee player would just get the benefit of the vote. seriously…the FJM guys proved this point over and over again yesterday.
face it…baseball stats are meaningful. it’s why jeter should’ve won in 2006 over morneau, and it’s why mauer and pujols are the two BEST PLAYERS IN BASEBALL.
just because jeter broke the iron horse’s YANKEE record doesn’t mean he’s a viable candidate. not when the yankees are loaded beyond belief and have six guys on their roster with better numbers and jeter’s performance pales in comparison to mauer’s.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:53 AM
Really? Stat people came down on the side of Pat Burrell? Pat Burrell fucking sucks. Everybody’s known that for at least the last 6 years.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:53 AM
Of course Mauer leads in average, OBP, and OPS, all of those stats go together. His extremely high batting average lets him lead in those catagories too. Tex’s OBP is over 90 points higher than his average compared to Mauer’s 70 points. So Tex actually walks more. Will lead the league in HR and RBI at the end of the year, and will be winning the gold glove. Enough of the catcher BS. Mauer won’t be winning the gold glove, and plays games at first and DH.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:54 AM
Can everyone just get it over with and blow Joe Mauer?
September 17th, 2009 at 9:55 AM
That would be a nifty argument if Gold Gloves meant anything.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:55 AM
that doesn’t mean mauer is chopped liver.
mauer would be leading the league in HR and RBI if he played in that bandbox 81 times per season.
is this a joke? seriously?
September 17th, 2009 at 9:56 AM
if i remember what people were saying about Ibanez correctly, it wasn’t so much what he’d do this year (and he murdered this year), but what he’d do in 2 years, and how those numbers looked relative to his contract. i think people didn’t think his body would keep up with his contract
September 17th, 2009 at 9:56 AM
does jeters case improve because he plays ss or get hurt because hes one of the worst fielding ss in the history of baseball?
September 17th, 2009 at 9:57 AM
Yes he will, no he doesn’t, and you find me a catcher good enough to regularly DH for a team.
RBI don’t matter, of course he’ll lead in RBI he has the best team.
Joe Mauer walks 1% less than Tex. He also strikes out 7% less than him.
I wish you ran every baseball team I didn’t like so the Twins could win the world series, even with a 5 year old at the helm. What a moron.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:57 AM
the crux of this issue is much deeper than athletes vs. spreadsheets.
it basically comes down to how one defines baseball’s “most valuable player,” which is extremely subjective no matter how one defines it.
is it “the best player in the league,” or is it — i lean more toward the this one — “the best player on the best team.”
i sum up my definition with this question:
how could andre dawsom be the nl most valuable player in 1987? you mean the cubs couldn’t have finished in last place without him?
there really should be two awards:
most valuable player.
player of the year.
but that will never happen because this vapid argument takes up too many hours and lures in too many callers/saps for braindead sports radio shows that don’t have the IQ to actually break down games and talk about strategy (“mike and mike” springs to mind).
September 17th, 2009 at 9:58 AM
at least mauer deserves it.
jeter does not deserve our fellatio. especially since if we blew him, we’d all get herpes.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:58 AM
Pedroia wasn’t top ten in OBP or slugging last year, but of course there was no furor. Love the double standard.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:58 AM
I think that was part of it, but I don’t think that was most of it. I think most people understood Burrell had just as much injury risk, despite being younger than Ibanez. Burrell having a better OPS than Ibanez I think was the much bigger part to it.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:58 AM
mauer would be leading the league in HR and RBI if he played in that bandbox 81 times per season.
Thanks for the intelligent argument. Not sure how many cheapshots Tex has hit.
Enough of the catcher BS.
It is just as invalid as bringing up gold gloves. Fine he is a catcher, great. Is he a superb catcher? No. He just sits back there and plays the position. The most valuable defensive position is SS anyway.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:58 AM
A Yankee WILL win the award.
Mauer is the better player in this current season.
/in 15 words or less’d
//like the 900th time I’ve said it
///the BBWAA kindly asks you to leave your stats at the door
September 17th, 2009 at 9:59 AM
spicious: and people are upset that an ABC guy tweeted that Obama called Kanye a jackass, and it was “private”. Wait until some guy that GWB had on staff for years blows out all those comments.
Nice that today no one can say or do anything in case someone they know blows them in to make money off of it.
/Hillary’s fat keester’d
September 17th, 2009 at 10:00 AM
catcher good enough to regularly DH for a team.
V Mart?
September 17th, 2009 at 10:00 AM
Well, that would sway my Hall of Fame vote!
/BBWAA
September 17th, 2009 at 10:00 AM
The most valuable defensive position is SS anyway.
that’s just wrong, considering that the catcher influences every pitch in the game. and the physical demands of the position make his offensive stats that much more remarkable.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:01 AM
Yes he is, no it’s not. Do you even know how to read?
And Clown, Pedroia led the AL in WAR last year, so he deserved it.
/although if catcher defense got credited appropriately, Mauer would have. Again.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:02 AM
remind them to swallow, too!
September 17th, 2009 at 10:02 AM
Yep, good one. He Mauer and McCann are the only three I can think of right now.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:02 AM
Hank Aaron Award and MVP are out there. They usually give the Hank to the guy that should’ve won the MVP.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:02 AM
mauer is fabulous but give me a catcher who hits .270 yet calls a great game and is superior defensively with a howitzer for an arm and i’ll have a jewel.
in some circles this is also called “yadi molina.”
September 17th, 2009 at 10:02 AM
Is he a superb catcher? No. He just sits back there and plays the position. The most valuable defensive position is SS anyway.
lol. watch a freaking Twins game.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:02 AM
wait, so defense means nothing, or it means something? It’s been a knock against a certain SS for quite awhile …
September 17th, 2009 at 10:03 AM
you find me a catcher good enough to regularly DH for a team.
Jorge…Martinez…good hitting catchers are real, doesn’t make them MVP.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:04 AM
There’s a catcher who calls a great game, is great defensively and has a great arm. Plus he hits .370. His name is Joe Mauer.
I wish I didn’t have to go to class, I’d rather laugh at how dumb Eagles is.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:04 AM
No No No No No No NO! Pedroia wasn’t even the best second baseman in the American League last year.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:05 AM
you guys keep naming good hitting catchers, but Mauer is a better hitter than all of them. and he’s a good defensive catcher.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:05 AM
WAR
???
he plays axis and allies?
September 17th, 2009 at 10:05 AM
You’re going to let a guy who had a .775 OPS last year DH? Are you secretly Royals GM Dayton Moore?
September 17th, 2009 at 10:06 AM
TBL- Mauer deserves it. come on man.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:06 AM
He led in a category that’s good for absolutely nothing? Pass.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:06 AM
who was? i’d like to hear which Yankee you come up with.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:06 AM
Jorge…Martinez…good hitting catchers are real, doesn’t make them MVP.
You’re missing the point… Mauer is actually a good defensive AND offensive catcher.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:06 AM
This hurts, but I would also rather have Yadier Molina as my catcher.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:07 AM
The only guy I can think who is in the discussion is Kinsler and he was a trainwreck defensively. This is where you need numbers. I don’t think anyone in here is a pro scout. I don’t see how hard it is to go oh 6 wins are worth more than 3 wins, or whatever Kinsler was worth
September 17th, 2009 at 10:07 AM
@wil
I think he’s talking about Kinsler…
September 17th, 2009 at 10:07 AM
that’s just wrong, considering that the catcher influences every pitch in the game. and the physical demands of the position make his offensive stats that much more remarkable.
If he calls his own game maybe he influences every pitch. Pitching coaches call most games and pitchers typically have final say. A catchers biggest influence comes on throwing out runners, but that usualy depends on pitchers and baserunner speed. I agree its a tough position, but it’s not like he is a god for playing it AND hitting. SS is the position that requires the best defense as it can determine # of runners and runners scoring.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:07 AM
No, defense is very important. The number of Gold Gloves a player has is just a poor measurement of how good someone is defensively. The Gold Glove award isn’t always (or even often) given to the best defensive player at each position.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:08 AM
@wilhelm – Well, if we’re in the business of giving Mauer a break this year for missing a month, perhaps we should have done the same for Ian Kinsler last year.
/he plays for Texas
September 17th, 2009 at 10:08 AM
+1 Clown. I agree the name is unfortunate. Sadly when it’s called Wins Above Replacement there’s not much you can do
September 17th, 2009 at 10:09 AM
Awesome. just tweeted that.
Also, he wasnt top 40 in OPS
September 17th, 2009 at 10:09 AM
Not true. Any other inaccuracies you want to come out with?
Are you 15 or 55? I haven’t decided yet.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:09 AM
catcher influences every pitch in the game. and the physical demands of the position make his offensive stats that much more remarkable.
Truth. It’s mentally and physically exhausting to catch. Add in a terrible pitching performance from a starter and you’ll hate taking off your gear and going to the plate every third inning.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:11 AM
eagles, if that’s all that you think a catcher does, than you’re not paying attention. even if he’s not calling pitches, his positioning behind the plate influences the umpire, helps position his defense, works with the pitcher on the field.
and his hitting as a catcher is literally unprecedented. he has more batting titles than every other catcher in major league history COMBINED.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:12 AM
I love how people (TBL, clown) will say “throw the stats aside, Jeter deserves the MVP”, and when you make a counterargument, they say “using the stats we choose to ignore, Pedroia shouldn’t have won it last year”. Make up your mind. If you’re saying Pedroia didn’t deserve the MVP last year, how in the hell can you make a straight faced argument that Jeter does this year?
September 17th, 2009 at 10:12 AM
this will get people worked up.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/tom_verducci/09/15/decade.team/index.html?eref=sihpT1
September 17th, 2009 at 10:13 AM
Now I know what it stands for, but I still don’t know what it means. I’ll take a stab at VORP…
Very Outstanding Replacement Player?
September 17th, 2009 at 10:14 AM
A catchers biggest influence comes on throwing out runners,
Fail. Framing, blocking and pitcher management are all just as important. What’s the advantage of having a good arm if you can’t block? Framing and working umpires is essential (see: Maddux and Javy Lopez). And pitchers are by far the most mentally fucked players on the field, a good catcher can manage a pitching staff, young or old.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:16 AM
I didn’t say Pedroia didn’t deserve it. I’m saying that there’s a precedent of not just looking at a spreadsheet to assess a player’s value.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:17 AM
Not sure how much positioning of the defense that a catcher does. The SS is typically responsible for ensuring the defense is in the right place depending on the pitch called and position.
I am not saying Mauer isn’t great. I am not saying playing catcher isn’t hard. But how can you argue that Mauer’s defensive position puts him above and beyond the others. Tex, although plays first, plays it great. Jeter, although is argued that he plays it poor, plays SS, which in my opinion has more influence.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:17 AM
What’s there to get worked up about? It’s just straight stat rankings, nothing subjective. I thought it was interesting.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:17 AM
rob neyer scoffs at this. numbers never lie.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:19 AM
exactly. the mvp is never decided on the same criteria. some years they give it to the best player in the league, some years they give it to the best player on the best team, and others they give it to the best player on a team that nobody thought would make the playoffs.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:20 AM
I think you’re view of baseball is stuck in Little League mode, where you stuck the best athlete you had to shortstop and he made every play from 3rd to 1st and into the outfield.
“He’s all over the place, SS must be valuable!”
September 17th, 2009 at 10:22 AM
But how can you argue that Mauer’s defensive position puts him above and beyond the others
like this.
Mauer’s defensive position along with his offensive numbers is more important to the Twins than anything that Jeter and Tex provide to the Yankees.
simple as that.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:22 AM
YOU INTENTIONALLY RAN THIS BEFORE I GOT UP. I AM THAT IMPORTANT. God bless you Duffy for your cogent insight.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:23 AM
rob neyer scoffs at this. numbers never lie.
rop neyer ass rape loves some Pedroia.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:24 AM
So Wins Above Replacement is calculated on an abacus?
September 17th, 2009 at 10:25 AM
DISINGENUOUS DISINGENUOUS DISINGENUOUS DISINGENUOUS I THOUGHT TEIX WAS MVP AND WE TOLD YOU IT WOUL BE JETER IF IT HAD TO BE A YANKEE TBL.
You are making me talk in capital letters. I haven’t had my coffee. Today already sucks.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:29 AM
You can actually make a much more reasonable argument that Hanley or Utley is the NL MVP. I wouldn’t agree with you, but you could do it reasonably. That’s how dumb this Jeter/Teix shit it.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:32 AM
@ St Bear…are you serious? I think you are stuck in little league, where you think the fielders are judged solely on their web gems. The SS plays as much of a mental roll in the defense as a catcher, especially when catchers aren’t calling pitches.
SS is responsible for positioning all 7 players in the field. He relays pitches to the outfield, he is the difference on most double plays (which are the most valuable thing a defense can do), and plays hit toward SS have the most potential for a close play, error, or being a hit. Their range, arm strength, and footwork is often the difference in many outs.
Whether a catcher is able to trick the umpire by framing isn’t as valuable as you are making it out to be. I guess we just need questec so you can get that thinking out of your head.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:33 AM
Epic Fail. You never fail to disappoint die eagles.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:34 AM
Sc I’ll explain it to you after I have class today
September 17th, 2009 at 10:35 AM
In those three categories, Jeter is below average, average, and throwing out footwork in favor of positioning, just now getting better.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:36 AM
You know what, it probably depends on the team and who they have playing each position. For the Twins, Cardinals, and Red Sox with Varitek, I’m sure the catcher has the most influence in defensive positioning and pitch calling. For other teams without a strong catcher, the SS picks up the slack and makes most of the calls.
/like we really know what goes on
September 17th, 2009 at 10:37 AM
@ So, there is nothing that a catcher influences more than throwing out a baserunner. Pitch execution really has little to do with the catcher, so I am not sure what you think is their biggest benefit. Way to attack an arguement without putting up an alternative.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:37 AM
Actually the catcher and the bench coach usually do this.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:39 AM
For some reason I find that sentence hilarious. I hope you are also Aware of All Internet Traditions as well.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:40 AM
Throwing out baserunners is almost as overrated a skill as stealing bases in the first place. If catching was as easy defensively as you claim then we would see more catchers who could actually hit since it’s extremely lucrative to be good back there (If Adam LaRoche caught for example $$$$$$). We do not. Therefore it is fucking hard to be a catcher.
/Science’d
September 17th, 2009 at 10:41 AM
Pat Corrales was awesome at this.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:43 AM
When did I ever say it wasn’t hard. I think it is ridiculous to extremely overvalue something like catching defense, then just discount the other position defense. All I am saying is that SS is almost as valuable, if not more valuable than catcher.
@ Souvenir, nice try, clearly you don’t know the intricacy of baseball, if you think some useless bench coach like Don Zimmer is the one putting players where they belong.
@ So, how can you say stealing bases is overrated? It automatically can make an error or a walk put a runner in scoring position if not 90 feet away. You can’t be serious.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Blocking, framing, throwing are all equally important. We’ll throw out pitch calling since you seem to think that all teams allow their coaches to call the game. Like I said before, what’s the benefit of having a great arm if you can’t block? Runners will wait for a pitch in the dirt to advance instead of trying to steal.
And I don’t know why you insist that framing is simply fooling the umpire. It’s giving him a good look at the pitch, not tricking the umpire.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:47 AM
God damn, can we just end the season and give the Yanks the title already?
September 17th, 2009 at 10:48 AM
Vorpies hate stolen bases. It’s in the Book of (Bill) James, Billy Beane version
September 17th, 2009 at 10:51 AM
At Clown:
READ A BOOK!
/that really is racist
/.BET did it so it’s okay’d
September 17th, 2009 at 10:51 AM
Hmmm, a guy that doesn’t know the intricacy of baseball, telling another guy he doesn’t know the intricacy of baseball. It’s a black fly in your chardonnay.
September 17th, 2009 at 11:09 AM
@ Ill, sure they are all important, but in the majors who can’t do that? Why does it set Mauer aside that he can block a pitch in the dirt, which is his job, and what every other catcher in the league does. Sure Mauer is probably a better catcher than Tex, but that probably shouldn’t make him MVP.
@ Young, don’t worry, I am plenty confident in my baseball knowledge, I don’t need you to tell me I don’t know what I am talking about.
September 17th, 2009 at 11:19 AM
LOL!!
September 17th, 2009 at 11:51 AM
rosenthal is right. the stat geeks will now attack him full force. cue rob neyer…
September 17th, 2009 at 11:54 AM
the FJM guys arent exactly objective. they would bend over for nick green