Peyton Manning’s Legacy Shouldn’t Be in Question Despite Super Bowl Loss to Saints
NFL February 8th. 2010, 11:15am
A long time ago, Peyton Manning got tagged a “choker” who didn’t perform well in the playoffs. Around the same time, Tom Brady was cementing his legacy as a “clutch” player who rose to the occasion. Over the years each time Manning threw a fourth quarter interception – and Brady a fourth quarter touchdown – it affirmed these preconceived notions, ignoring the countless times in which their roles were reversed.
We got pretty close this year to permanently reversing the Manning tag this season, as his Colts won seven come-from-behind games during the regular season and looked dominant in two postseason games. Even Bill Simmons begrudgingly anointed him in a mailbag this weekend, saying decisively, in the way only he can, that you just can’t bet against the Manning. It felt like Manning would finally erase any doubt about his abilities.
The morning after people are flocking in droves back to the comfy confines of a band wagon that long ago concluded Peyton Manning was not a “big game” quarterback. All because of a single play.
The greatest of all time? Nope. Not even close now. The GOAT doesn’t throw that kind of awful interception. Joe Montana didn’t throw those in the Super Bowl. Has Tom Brady? Manning has one ring and a bushel of stats and records. He deserves accolades and praise, but the GOAT talk must stop now.
Manning and the Colts are the Atlanta Braves. The Colts, under Manning, have won at least 12 games seven years in a row. Yet all Manning has to show for it is one title. He’s now 9-9 in the playoffs, which is about as far away from GOAT material as the Middle East is from the Colts’ practice facility.
A play, Whitlock writes, that “cemented Manning’s reputation as a big-game disappointment”. Simmons giddily flip-flopped so quickly from his praise that it was startling even for him.
But Manning and Brady, the player around whom all postseason performances are measured in this era, are in many ways the same quarterback in the playoffs. After last night’s game, they’ve now both played 18 postseason games each and their statistical comparison is astonishingly close:
| G | Yards | TD | INT | Completion % | QB Rating | |
| Tom Brady | 18 | 4108 | 28 | 15 | 62.97 | 88.46 |
| Peyton Manning | 18 | 5164 | 28 | 19 | 63.0 | 87.41 |
[CORRECTION: Names were initially incorrectly associated to the wrong stat line.]
Overall record was left off of this comparison for a reason. (Manning is 9-9 in the playoffs, Brady 14-4.) While it’s true that the quarterback position plays a significant role in a game’s outcome, it’s a slippery slope to conclude team record is a decisive indicator of a quarterback’s ability, especially in this case. The factors that also played a part in the Patriots Super Bowl wins are wide-ranging. Brady’s Patriots were more balanced offensively and relied less on the passing game. It’s also no secret that they were always the most well-prepared and well-coached in any game.
Additionally, New England boasted a dominant defense to accompany Brady in his earliest playoff runs, a luxury Manning rarely had. In Super Bowl-winning years, the Patriots finished in 6th, 1st and 2nd, respectively, in team defense. In 2007, their undefeated season, they finished 4th. In years they missed the playoffs or lost early, they finished 17th twice. This year, they finished 5th.
Unfortunately, sports media culture favors reaction and discourages reflection. Moreover, people hate it when their conventions are challenged so whether he wins more Super Bowls or not, Manning will have trouble living down the reputation bestowed upon him a long time ago, unfair or not.
191 Responses to “Peyton Manning’s Legacy Shouldn’t Be in Question Despite Super Bowl Loss to Saints”
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February 8th, 2010 at 11:17 AM
The Bill Simmons jinx lives!
February 8th, 2010 at 11:18 AM
Manning will make it to two more super bowls before he retires, the Colts are loaded on offense. Excellent Post
February 8th, 2010 at 11:19 AM
nice post
February 8th, 2010 at 11:19 AM
THANK YOU for putting that to rest right away. Although I’m sure everyone will still argue about it and bring up their records.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:19 AM
only montana is infallible
/ballzdeep’d
February 8th, 2010 at 11:20 AM
hahahahah
briefly o/t
Russell and Sanchez had similar rookie stats. Everyone says that means something.
Brady and Manning have similar postseason stats. Everyone says …
February 8th, 2010 at 11:21 AM
I can see this a bit, mainly in the fact Dungy and Cox are both vastly overrated coaches/managers. IMO
February 8th, 2010 at 11:22 AM
As a Pats fan, I hate Bill Simmons. He represents the worst of the fanbase.
The only year this was true was 2004 when they had Dillon and he rushed for 1,600. Other than that the Pats had a bad rush game.
They are, but the fact remains Brady led them down the field twice to win Super Bowls, and his performance in SB 38, was one of the best ever and would be maybe the best if he didn’t throw one pick. Brees tied his record of 32 completions from that SB.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:22 AM
mannings pass to clark was the most beautiful pass i have ever seen in a super bowl.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:22 AM
Brady and Manning have similar postseason stats. Everyone says …
it says that when you take the human bias away they are similar players
February 8th, 2010 at 11:24 AM
that have played out their careers in very different situations.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:25 AM
Freeman is a dumbfuck. How many All-Pro, HOF, great QBs go through this league without a title? Even a SB appearance?
Nice post, Gee-off.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:25 AM
Marino blows…
February 8th, 2010 at 11:26 AM
Yeah – what he said
/Jay Cutler
Seriously though – I agree
February 8th, 2010 at 11:27 AM
I don’t follow this statement. Aren’t both premises saying the same thing- the difference between the outcomes show that QBs aren’t totally responsible for win/loss record?
February 8th, 2010 at 11:27 AM
mannings pass to clark was the most beautiful pass i have ever seen in a super bowl
meh. Doug Williams to Rickey Sanders
Colts are going to two more Super Bowls? so many what ifs
February 8th, 2010 at 11:27 AM
Ask any player in the bigs who they’d like to play for. Bobby Cox is top 2 on that list. Not sure the same is true about Dungy.
Also, nice post. Can we get more from Decker? This dude is good.
Everyone says they’re both really good QBs. Your obsession with this is kind of disturbing.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:27 AM
hmmm…stats look the same…however, they don’t show game deciding pick 6’s anywhere…
/fanning the flame
/manning is one of the best ever, wait until his career is over to call him GOAT, b/c if his career ended today, he’s not GOAT.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:28 AM
They also cheated better than everyone else
February 8th, 2010 at 11:28 AM
Everyone here seems to be in agreement, but I still find it absurd people are questioning the capabilities of Peyton. Yeah, he is SUCH a choke artist that coaches, SB WINNING COACHES, go against their philosophies in order to keep the ball out of his right arm. Get the fuck outta here. Manning played a great game and just threw an ill-timed throw that someone who was watching film got tipped off on. The discussion of Manning’s chokability is a slap to the face of people who watch football.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:29 AM
Really funny coming from a Steelers fan
February 8th, 2010 at 11:29 AM
more disturbing than miz’s obsession?
February 8th, 2010 at 11:29 AM
It says…
Manning/Brady are fairly similar. One is probably a little better than the other.
Sanchez/Russel are fairly similar. One is probably a little better than the other.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:31 AM
They switch places and the record most likely stays with the TEAM and not the QB
February 8th, 2010 at 11:32 AM
IMO, you cannot leave this off the chart. NFL success is measured in wins and losses, and like it or not, the league is QB-centric. Brady has been clutch at the right times. Manning has not always been clutch at the right times. Both are great QB’s, but Brady has had more playoff success.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:32 AM
laughable.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:33 AM
Its also a slipper slope to compare stats. A first quarter pick is not the same as the game losing 4th quarter pick 6.
So you didnt watch last years game?
February 8th, 2010 at 11:33 AM
Peyton’s teams (in HS, college and pros) have always been in contention for championships. The Colts are always in the running with him.
Whether he’s the greatest QB or not will not be determined until he’s done.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:34 AM
Brady has been clutch at the right times. Manning has not always been clutch at the right times.
You could switch this around and it would still be correct.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:35 AM
Its also a slipper slope to compare stats. A first quarter pick is not the same as the game losing 4th quarter pick 6.
If the first quarter pick is a pick 6 then they are the same.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:35 AM
Everyone says they’re both really good QBs. Your obsession with this is kind of disturbing.
you can say that again
February 8th, 2010 at 11:35 AM
i did. that was a nice pass. but just rewatch that play. not the significance of the play, but the play itself. a ball couldn’t have been thrown better.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:35 AM
S1r – so if the stats are the same, but the records are different and the “situations” are different, why are we placing so much value in the stats?
if we’re going to talk about the Pats’ defensive edge, who wants to tally up the skill talent that Manning had vs. the skill talent Brady had? off the top of my head, heavy, heavy lean to Manning. Edge, Harrison are 1st ballot HOFers. Brady had Moss for just four of those 18 games.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:36 AM
Definitely. Better than reading that shit from BigBrainonBrett.
Also, Cowherd said they’re hoping to get Brees after the :40 SportsCenter.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:37 AM
You know who is clutch and is in the HOF. Joe Namath. Not because he was a great QB or anything but he was ‘clutch’ at the ‘right times’ whatever that is.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:38 AM
Last I checked Peyton calls the plays, and considering how Joe Addai was tearing up the Saints interior D he probably should have called a few more runs.
False, one you can overcome, one you cant.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:39 AM
Criticism of Manning is pretty lame considering how many people line up to fellate him as the “best field general in the game” on a daily basis. He had a few bad throws towards the end of the game, but the interception by Porter was not one of them. Porter read the route and jumped it before the receiver turned on the inside curl. That’s what breaking down game tape does for you as a defender.
This was a fairly good Super Bowl. Not much sloppiness in terms of the play.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:39 AM
Manning’s playoff win percentage would be better if he failed to make the playoffs when his team wasn’t good enough to go all the way, like so many of the other quarterbacks that people are trying to trumpet over him.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:39 AM
I expect fetch to come running in here and go all Bill James on everybody about the existence of “clutch”.
/it doesn’t exist
February 8th, 2010 at 11:39 AM
Also, until we see penis pics, this debate will never be settled.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:39 AM
Most people value them correctly. People often take them completely out of context and proper usage 95% of the time. if one cared enough and learned some of nuances they would be able to use the proper stats, comparisons etc properly.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:39 AM
What time does the Brees post go up?
February 8th, 2010 at 11:40 AM
Edge, Harrison are 1st ballot HOFers
Part of the problem with football stats comps is that it is really hard to use this kind of context. Are Hariison and Edge first ballot guys simply because they played with Manning? No evidence to prove that, but none refuting it either.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:40 AM
He has had Moss for 3 playoff games. 2 in ‘07 and the one this year.
Namath is in for the SB 3 guarantee and his persona, nothing more or less.
Why do people have to devalue what Brady did to affirm that Manning is still great even after this mistake?
February 8th, 2010 at 11:41 AM
All of this backlash against Peyton is reactionary and not fair, but when we’ve heard for two weeks about “greatest this” and “greatest that” and he blows it thats the natural reaction. I know it wasnt Peyton saying he was the greatest, but he pays the price, fair or not.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:42 AM
Really funny coming from a Steelers fan
you know that they did cheat, though, right? i mean, they admitted to it.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:42 AM
I would go as far as to suggest that neither Harrison or Edge will be first ballot HOFers.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:42 AM
agree, don’t need to devalue Brady. Manning is just better.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:43 AM
BREES ON COWHERD RIGHT NOW
February 8th, 2010 at 11:43 AM
A lot of the same people are pushing Brady back up the All-time list when he’s been on his couch for a month.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:44 AM
The Steelers of the 70s using roids? Yeah, I know they did.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:44 AM
Edge is a first ballot HOF? Not so sure I agree w/ this one. But your point is a great one: Brady was playing with Troy Brown, David Patten, Deion Branch and Reche Caldwell. He’s never had a TE like Clark or a consistent all-around receiver like Harrison or Wayne.
They are both great players. Honestly, I don’t think Brady gets the respect he deserves. I think Manning does.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:45 AM
apparently you can’t lose a game in a team sport without it meaning that you’re not as valuable as once thought.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:45 AM
good point about talent, TBL, but if you think for a second that Belichick thought he needed top tier talent in order for his system to succeed, you’re mistaken.
Here’s a hypothetical: If Manning was a Patriot for the last decade, is there any way New England achieves less success than with Brady?
February 8th, 2010 at 11:45 AM
Really funny coming from a Steelers fan
you know that they did cheat, though, right? i mean, they admitted to it.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:46 AM
Who’s we? I never said I was in agreement with Sanchez/Russell as a statistical comparison, for the reasons you stated – two very different situations. Why wouldn’t the same apply to Manning/Brady?
But for argument’s sake, I think having Belichick as a head coach makes your talent comparison a wash.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:46 AM
The Steelers of the 70s using roids? Yeah, I know they did.
but this discussion is about Peyton Manning, and how he compares to Tom Brady. so unless you want to talk about the Colts cheating, I’m not sure how it applies.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:47 AM
False, one you can overcome, one you cant.
nooooooo
February 8th, 2010 at 11:47 AM
HA!!!
Brees interview with Cowherd just got interrupted because Obama called Brees!!!
February 8th, 2010 at 11:47 AM
He was off the list? Pretty sure those people had Brady on their list behind Manning.
I said that in the other thread. However, I’d rather take Brady in the clutch.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:47 AM
fair question. Just saying that Manning had those guys on his side in the playoffs, while Brady won with scrubs like Deion Branch and Antowain Smith. just sayin’ …
February 8th, 2010 at 11:47 AM
Beat me to it. I have trouble seeing Manning being less successful for the Pats.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:48 AM
Cowherd just got big timed by Obama during his interview with Brees. -lol
funny
February 8th, 2010 at 11:48 AM
The NFL had a steroid policy in the 70’s?
February 8th, 2010 at 11:48 AM
And Cowherd is milking it. I am actually enjoying cowherd right now.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:49 AM
Did Brees call him out for predicting the Colts?
February 8th, 2010 at 11:49 AM
they both have qualities and achievments that rank them as pretty similar QB’s.
I mean, players don’t say “the ultimate goal is to have a great regular season and win the division.”
The ultimate goal, among everyone in the organization is to win the super bowl. it always has been. you can either devalue that to prove a point that one player is superior to another that has acheived that goal however many times, or you can accept that we’re essentially getting in a pissing contest about people who don’t know our names and won’t acknowledge us when they give their HOF speech.
they are 1 and 2 or 2 and 1, whichever way you lean in your fandom.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:50 AM
Did Brees call him out for predicting the Colts?
sparty: He went to Purdue. He’s too classy to do that
February 8th, 2010 at 11:50 AM
The NFL had a steroid policy in the 70’s?
not the point. Belichek isn’t a dick, because someone else was also a dick one time. The Pats cheating doesn’t matter, because someone else once cheated.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:50 AM
pretty much. i think their measurables are pretty consistent with one another. comes down to the eye test. in the end it is really subjective with those two.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:51 AM
Brees ended up calling Cowherd him back. Ha!
February 8th, 2010 at 11:51 AM
Cowherd spent the first segment saying he told us all the Saint would win.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:51 AM
when is duffy going to write his post tebow commercial post? i want him to be “it still shouldn’t have aired!” or “im an idiot” those are the only to acceptable ways to be.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:51 AM
It applies because if you think the videotaping is in any responisble for Brady’s success than you’re an idiot. They admitted to taping on the field, where it is not allowed. That is what was proven and admitted to be wrong. Every team was doing the same thing just not in a blatant manner. That is why MLB are mic’d now.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:52 AM
Color me shocked at the Manning love in the comments. I was under an impression he’d get killed after last night.
/ reconsidering the collective intelligence of TBL readers.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:52 AM
Who gives a shit about Brady today…he didn’t play
February 8th, 2010 at 11:53 AM
Marvin would like to see you in the alley after dark.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:53 AM
exactly.
for all we know, Manning may win 3 more super bowls, brady may win 1 more, (or vice versa) or both may out of nowhere play like kurt warner did from 2002-2006.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:53 AM
I don’t think Manning should be getting ALL the grief for the interception. From Greggggg Doyel’s column:
It should be noted that Porter credited the coaching staff for the interception, saying someone on staff noticed how Colts receiver Austin Collie tipped off a certain pass to Reggie Wayne when he went in motion from an inverted formation. Well, that play had the inverted formation. And Collie went in motion.
“It was great film study,” Porter said. “The coaching staff did a great job preparing us. … I saw [Collie] do that, and I jumped the route and the ball came right into my hands.”
Should Manning have audibled a change? Maybe. To say that he’s a choke artist is fucking ignorant. I still wouldn’t put him above Montana or Brady though.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:55 AM
It applies because if you think the videotaping is in any responisble for Brady’s success than you’re an idiot. They admitted to taping on the field, where it is not allowed. That is what was proven and admitted to be wrong. Every team was doing the same thing just not in a blatant manner. That is why MLB are mic’d now
and no team but the Steelers had guys juicing in the 70s. got it.
I’m just shocked that since every other team was doing it, only the Pats got caught. Belichek is such a genius, and yet he was the only one that didn’t outsmart the league. the thought that they were the only one’s taping is utterly preposterous.
/occam’d
February 8th, 2010 at 11:56 AM
The most egregious part of that ad was that it didn’t even have a clear message. Like, if I had no previous knowledge that it was pro-life, I would’ve had no clue what it was all about. It was like a shittier E-Harmony commercial. I’d be pissed if I was that pro-life company because the marketing/advertising agency didn’t send a message of anything.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:57 AM
beadle in the morning is always good
February 8th, 2010 at 11:58 AM
It should be noted that Porter credited the coaching staff for the interception, saying someone on staff noticed how Colts receiver Austin Collie tipped off a certain pass to Reggie Wayne when he went in motion from an inverted formation. Well, that play had the inverted formation. And Collie went in motion.
“It was great film study,” Porter said. “The coaching staff did a great job preparing us. … I saw [Collie] do that, and I jumped the route and the ball came right into my hands.”
interesting. Now they have someone new to blame. The last Collie that’s gonna get killed like this was Lassie
February 8th, 2010 at 11:58 AM
it purposely didnt have a clear message. the ad was brilliant
February 8th, 2010 at 11:58 AM
As for the topic of the post, I think it was generally accepted that if the Colts won, Peyton would be very much in the mix for “greatest ever.” Theres no right answer, but theres a pool of maybe 3-4 guys that all qualify. So with the pick-6, he’s still just outside that pool?
In my mind yes, fair or not he needs more than 1 ring. I dont see much difference between 2 and 3, or 2 and 4, but 1 just isnt enough, not for a QB.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:58 AM
The whole point was that you were supposed to talk about the ad. It worked, except I have no idea what the company/church name behind it is anymore.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:59 AM
One difference between Brady and Manning that I see is Manning has gotten better over the last two years and Brady may never quite be the same. It’s not Brady’s fault, but for Manning to continue to improve at his age (by NFL standards) to my recollection is without peer.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:59 AM
I mentioned it because there was a insinuation that the Pats noly accomplished what they did because they “cheated”. That’s why it was pointed out about the Steelers, because it forced that reaction about “everyone did steroids in the 70s”. It’s not about outsmarting anyone, the type of filming they were doing was allowed in the league as long as you didn’t do it on the field the way the Pats were, when Mangini a former assistant complained to the league. Mike Shanahan admitted he had guys in binoculars up in the stadium doing the same thing.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:02 PM
Wasn’t it the Godhatesfags church or something close to it?
/ducks
February 8th, 2010 at 12:03 PM
Bourbon street at 8am
February 8th, 2010 at 12:03 PM
Brady is a couple years younger than Peyton, and is also dealing with this 3rd O-coordinator. The Pats offense lost a lot when McDaniels left town, I hardly see that as proof that Brady will never be the same, he has 4-5 good years ahead of him. The problem with the current situation in New England is not Brady.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:04 PM
Whether he’s the greatest QB or not will not be determined until he’s done.
What he said. Well played, yet again, BFFredo.
And to MikeNYC, to answer your “when will the Drew Brees post be up?” Answer’s going to be never. Because TBL refuses to acknowledge that Drew Brees:
a) schooled the Jets earlier this year,
b) is better than Mike Vick,
c) is the best QB of the last four years,
d) all of the above.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:04 PM
Mike Shanahan admitted he had guys in binoculars up in the stadium doing the same thing.
you can’t study binocular readings like you can tape. that’s why it’s a big deal.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:04 PM
okay so brady and manning have similar stats even though manning has played a majority of those games in a dome…while brady’s january games are fucking in massachusetts
February 8th, 2010 at 12:04 PM
I was with a group of people who had no idea what was going on. I had to tell them the background to get the “ohhhhh ok” response.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:05 PM
That was the genius of it. They got the media to discuss their message leading up to the SB, so they can get their message out and have an innocuous ad that is impossbile to rip, thus the talking heads talk about how tasteful it was and give them more positive pub.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:06 PM
Oh, and I’ll say it again….GEAUX SAINTS.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:07 PM
Someone has been saying this a lot lately.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:08 PM
A lot of the talking heads are probably eating crow today.
But, I confess the only buzz I read about it was on here and listening to Cowherd and, I believe, Dan Patrick. I avoid primetime cable “news.” Yuck.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:08 PM
That was in the late 90s, before taping was as easy as it is now. You don’t think they moved on from that? That was just an example of a coach saying it was common practice.
Your thought process is because only the Patriots were caught doing this by the league they are the only ones who were employing this tactic and I’m the one using occam’s?
February 8th, 2010 at 12:08 PM
These debates are why I love and hate sports. Bottom line, peyton’s a badass, still has a few years to make this a footnote.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:08 PM
good point, BSSM.
so elements advantage to Manning.
talent at skill positions advantage to Manning.
defense advantage to Brady.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:09 PM
Peyton is the de-facto offensive coordinator, if Brady is better (I know you’re not arguing that, while simultaneously defending him) why can’t he do the same? Statistics show that a QB’s best year is when they are 31. Brady lost that year and Brady was not the same this year, thereby fulling my speculation that he may never be the same again.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:10 PM
Brees schooled the Jets? really?
you mean when he didn’t throw a TD pass (at home)?
you mean when his ypa was 5.9, tied for lowest this season?
come on, Held, you’re better than that. you saw the game: Sanchez made 2 rookie mistakes and the Saints scored TDs on both of them. one could argue no team did a better job defensively this season on Brees. (subjective, of course)
February 8th, 2010 at 12:11 PM
i thought it was strange that neither team really took a shot deep. i guess the one under thrown ball to wayne was semi deep. It must just have not been in the game plan. Both teams moved the ball pretty well without it.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:11 PM
February 8th, 2010 at 12:12 PM
I’ve got no dog in this Manning-Brady “fight.”
I think there’s a ton of ammo for each side of the argument. there is no answer to who is ‘better.’
Given the choice, i take Manning in the regular season, but give me brady for a playoff game.
just one guy’s opinion.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:13 PM
i wonder if texans has recovered from his rage last night. He and ballzdeep are now mortal enemies.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:13 PM
This was a very well done post, but I think it’s BS to do a Manning-Brady post and give Brees short shrift. Or Sean Payton. I’m the biggest Manning fan I know, but the Saints from the first quarter on dominated. Brees was throwing underneath to wide open guys all night, while Manning was on the run trying to squeeze it into tight windows. The Saints coaching staff should get a post, or Brees, but another Manning-Brady rendition? Oy.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:13 PM
brady got the shit kicked out of him this year
February 8th, 2010 at 12:14 PM
The QB’s main role is to play the game not be the de-facto coordinator. Brady has a lot of freedom to change this in that offense and he does. Tom Moore still give Peyton a lot of input. I agree that Brady was not the same this year but the pourous O-line didn’t help. I was going to say something about Favre having his best year stat wise but that is the exception, not the rule.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:14 PM
I read somewhere that he played against the toughest defensive schedule of any QB in the past 15 years.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:15 PM
true…cut me some slack i could talk brady or brady/manning all day
February 8th, 2010 at 12:15 PM
that shit last night was funny. Texans seems like such a laid back dude, it was surprising to see him get angry
February 8th, 2010 at 12:16 PM
i believe it was the vaunted publication “The New England Journal of Defenses”
February 8th, 2010 at 12:17 PM
yeah he lost it, at least it was towards a worthy individual.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:19 PM
Haha funny Reaazy but I think it was Football Outsiders, those guys who do a lot of statistical analysis. I think they also said Brady had the best year at QB this year when considering all the factors. I dont know enough about their stats to believe that but it was interesting.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:19 PM
Some ad exec earned his midday scotch and busty redhead.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:20 PM
the saints were good. plenty of mentions about the onside kick (great job by payton) and got a post last night and this morning.
the saints got plenty of due … there’s no argument/story with Brees/payton. they won. what’s left say? they were great?
February 8th, 2010 at 12:21 PM
That was the genius of it. They got the media to discuss their message leading up to the SB, so they can get their message out and have an innocuous ad that is impossbile to rip, thus the talking heads talk about how tasteful it was and give them more positive pub.
That was a great Viagra ad.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:24 PM
Does Brees have a chance of supplanting Brady or Manning as a top 2 QB? (Yes) Is Sean Payton an “elite” coach now? (Maybe) Did the Saints win it or did the Colts lose it? (little of both) Will the Saints go 8-8 next year and miss the playoffs? (Yes)
February 8th, 2010 at 12:27 PM
it’s definitely a Manning/Brady/Brees and then everyone else is a distant 4th.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:28 PM
Anyone see this, wow.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/roger-goodell-3-point-stance-020710
February 8th, 2010 at 12:31 PM
@TBL: Okay, “schooled” is perhaps too strong a word, but the Bills were tougher on Brees than the Jets.
And I also note you didn’t respond when I pointed out the now proven fallacy that is your Mike Vick > Drew Brees argument. And if Manning gets a “is his legacy in jeopardy?” post, why can’t the Saints get a “does Sean Payton’s ball have rivets on them where the steel plates were joined together?” or a “Drew Brees: Better than Manning or Brady now?” post?
I mean, making one comment on how the Saints are great in one Super Bowl post–albeit one about Peyton Manning–doesn’t really cut it.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:33 PM
yeah, wonder how much of a difference does that have? it only seems like it’s slowing down players from getting to the QB to me.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:33 PM
i really said Vick > Brees? eager for you to find that comment/post.
i had the Saints winning the division. peter king is the one who had them 24th in the preseason.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:33 PM
Phillip Rivers is closer than you think. right now without a doubt Manning is number 1 currently and all time
February 8th, 2010 at 12:34 PM
so belichick gets crucified for leaving the field after his super bowl loss but manning gets a free pass?
February 8th, 2010 at 12:35 PM
Fuckin hate the beer shits.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:35 PM
I’ll put Aaron Rodgers right up there with Philip Rivers.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:37 PM
Since we’re talking about quarterbacks that didn’t play yesterday so much, who do you guys think will be the best QB of the current crop of QBs to not get in the HOF? I know its speculation, but there could potentially be 8ish guys that QB’d this past season in the HOF. Could McNabb be the guy left out?
February 8th, 2010 at 12:38 PM
so belichick gets crucified for leaving the field after his super bowl loss but manning gets a free pass?
Being a dick has consequences, amazingly different standards are applied to different people based on how they treat others. Also BSSM here, meet BallzDeep. You two can talk over here about how this affects teams that didn’t play in the Superbowl last night.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:38 PM
Not to demean the general premise that Peyton has played with better offensive players, but Edge has ZERO chance of being a first ballot HOFer.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:38 PM
Oh, and one more thing: Brees completed 82 percent of his passes in the Super Bowl. One of those misses was on a spike and the other was a drop by Marques Colston that went right through his hands.
Again, right now: Drew Brees > World. (And yes, I realize I’m being a bit ridiculous, but no more so than making some crazed notion that Mike Vick is better than Brees.)
February 8th, 2010 at 12:39 PM
I was told it was because Bill is an asshole and everyone knows it, and Peyton is an awesomely classy dude and everyone knows it. Or something like that.
/At least Bill never teabagged anyone
//that we know of
February 8th, 2010 at 12:39 PM
/sorry, too harsh. Texans appears to have had as much as a manz canz stanz and he cant stanz no more.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:41 PM
LeBron would never leave… the court without shaking hands.
/Cleveland fan
//Facts are irrelevant
February 8th, 2010 at 12:41 PM
McNabb could still change things, but as of right now, he’s prob not a HOFer.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:46 PM
yeah. sam adams used to ruin me.
nothin worse than wiskey and hot wings shits.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:47 PM
so belichick gets crucified for leaving the field after his super bowl loss but manning gets a free pass?
So you mean a coach and a player have different standards? No way. Really I don’t care who is a dick and who isn’t, but this is just a stupid comparison.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:49 PM
Jay – you see this list?
http://espn.go.com/nfl/history/leaders/_/stat/rushlead
Edge 11th in NFL history rushing the football. easy to forget, but he had 5 insanely dominant years.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JameEd00.htm
if not for injuries in season 3, that guy is probably top 5 rushing yards of all-time. only 3000 carries!!
February 8th, 2010 at 12:49 PM
I’m tired of of the argument that playoff success can’t be used against Manning because the Colts defenses were worse than the Patriots defense. Over the past 9 seasons (since NE’s 1st SB win) the Colts have finished higher in total defense (I believe total points was used for this argument)four times to the Patriots five. The Colts finished higher in 2008, 2007, 2005, and 2002. The year the Colts won they were 23rd in total points and the Patriots were 2nd. The argument sucks.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:49 PM
The premise of the post is fine but the headline is not. When you are debating all-timers, and that’s what you’re doing here, of course a pick-six in the Super Bowl is going to factor into an individual’s legacy.
That bad decision has nothing to do with the Patriots’ defense or a reactionary media but simply a piss-poor decision by Manning.
When Brady failed to move the Pats at the end of Super XLII, when all he needed was a field goal, that docked his legacy, too.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:50 PM
its not a comparison of players or coaches..its a damn comparison of the media
i dont care at all that peyton left the field
February 8th, 2010 at 12:50 PM
@TBL: From April of 2009…
http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2009/04/21/some-people-are-rooting-for-mike-vick/#comments
“Regarding the 2001 NFL draft in which Vick (2-2 in the playoffs) went first, can you really say that the only other QB from that weak class, Drew Brees (2nd round; 1-2 in the playoffs) has had a significantly better career? Stats-wise Brees obviously has the edge. Both lost to a superior defensive team on the road in the NFC Championship. Vick put more fans in the seats in Atlanta and sold more jerseys, that’s for sure.” — YOU
This lead to the following exchange:
but Brees has been more effective as a QB and is the conductor of one of the most potent offenses in the NFL.
“that has gotten him what, exactly? oh, right. they don’t have a defense. well, neither did Vick.” — YOU
Later…
“brees is killin’ it in that sean payton system. would kliff kingsbury be able to do the same?” — YOU
And I got in the final post on that one, actually…
“Good to know that TBL’s Drew Brees bashfest is getting started early this year.
He must have QB envy, since the old land baron the Jets had lining up under center tired out last season and retired.
Drew Brees v. Mike Vick? Are you fucking kidding me, TBL? Shit, if you’d have said Brad Johnson or David Garrard, you might have had something I suppose. But Drew Brees? Mike Vick must’ve sold you some good shit.
/Angry fandom’d” — ME
Now…how about the post praising Drew Brees, TBL?
February 8th, 2010 at 12:51 PM
He threw the go-ahead TD pass with a little over two minutes and change, and then his defense gave up an insane catch and a TD to Burress. Brady had like 30 seconds from the shadow of his own goalpost and the O-line was letting everyone by. How did this dock his legacy?
February 8th, 2010 at 12:54 PM
its not a comparison of players or coaches..its a damn comparison of the media
i dont care at all that peyton left the field
Huh? Aren’t you complaining that the media isn’t hitting Peyton and they did Belichick? Inherent in that argument is some level of realtive equality between the two’s responsibilities.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:55 PM
As someone mentioned earlier, he led his team to the game winning touchdown with a few minutes left before The Escape and The Helmet Catch happened. He was only left with 13 seconds after that, it’s hard to say that it hurts his legacy to not be able to down the field in 13 seconds.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:56 PM
@JerseyYo!
All credit to you, good sir.
My apologies. I didn’t get a chance to read through all the comments from the last few posts.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:56 PM
good stuff, heldover
/and, as I said last night to you Saints guys…congrats
February 8th, 2010 at 12:57 PM
held – nowhere does it say Vick is ‘better’ than Brees. hell, i even saying that brees is better, just not “significantly better”.
/mind blown
//to confirm, i never said vick was better
Brees had a magnificent season. i like the guy. he was phenomenal yesterday. i even said in the post last night – Brees was “flawless.”
do you want blood?
February 8th, 2010 at 12:57 PM
TBL….he’s not going to be first-ballot. Period. It’s not a knock on him at all, but you to understand how ridiculously difficult it is to be a first-ballot guy.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:57 PM
heldover, TBL must’ve tagged that with a “just sayin’”. Which means he’s comparing them but not really comparing them.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:57 PM
Yeow, just went and re-read that thread. Kid Montana was in peak form.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:58 PM
it’s been pointed out that brady did a lot on offense on the drive prior to that.
unfortunately for manning, his legacy was being written by the media before this game even played.
he was supposed to win the game and be the GOAT. he didn’t. he threw a pick that sealed the game for NO. better luck next year.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:59 PM
Coaching, advantage to Brady and it’s a significant advantage.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:00 PM
And to add to that…Edge’s rushing ranks are great…but they are no more impressive than where Cris Carter or Tim Brown ranks receiving-wise.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:02 PM
Jay – FWIW, Brady’s RB in the first two SB wins was Antowain Smith.
That was the bigger point. HOF? maybe you’re right and there’s a debate because 6 yrs from now, a ton of people pass him in the ranks. that being said, the guy was a dominant NFL PLAYER – elite, top 3 at his position in the game – for 6-7 yrs.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:04 PM
Cracker Jack
Giants scored with 35 seconds left. Brady needed a field goal, not a length-of-the-field touchdown.
More to the point, that whole game affected Brady’s legacy, as did Manning’s performance Sunday.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:07 PM
1st ballot HOF’er may be the worst phrase in sports.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:09 PM
TBL..trust me, I agreed on the bigger point, just don’t like to see you recklessly throwing around ”first-ballot” status.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:09 PM
The final score affected his legacy because he had a chance at tying Montana and Bradshaw and going 19-0. The Giants pass rush was superhuman that game and Brady went 60%, with the go-ahead TD and
picks.
Manning threw the game-deciding pick.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:09 PM
@TBL: Nope, I don’t want blood. I don’t want your milkshake, either.
But “Kliff Kingsbury,” man? Really?
February 8th, 2010 at 1:10 PM
TBL, I generally agree with your point that Edge was very good and certainly better than Antwain. But just take a gander at Dominic Rhodes numbers the year Edge missed most of the season. They too are of hall of fame caliber. 10 starts, nearly 1000 yards and 8 TDs. Point being that the system, and to whatever extent Manning played in it, is part of what made those players so good. So not sure it is fair to detract from Manning when he is a large part of what made them so good in the first place.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:10 PM
hmm, used ‘quote’ instead of ‘bold’. Lunchtime.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:13 PM
TBL….he’s not going to be first-ballot. Period. It’s not a knock on him at all, but you to understand how ridiculously difficult it is to be a first-ballot guy.
First Ballot status is usually reserved for all time greats and any quarterback. As for Edge James, he’s not getting in anytime soon. He’s behind Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis in most categories, and they’ll probably both have to wait a while, too.
The trouble is that there is a little backlog of HOF caliber running backs, starting with Roger Craig, and when the time comes, Marshall Faulk.
James will be waiting a while.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:15 PM
held – you see this? more proof brees and vick were close early in their careers
http://twitter.com/MoveTheSticks/status/8815781326
February 8th, 2010 at 1:16 PM
As someone mentioned earlier, he led his team to the game winning touchdown with a few minutes left before The Escape and The Helmet Catch happened. He was only left with 13 seconds after that, it’s hard to say that it hurts his legacy to not be able to down the field in 13 seconds.
why doesn’t CJ see that it was me defending Brady? I’m just “somebody” when I’m on her side, but when I disagree with her, I’m a dispicable asshole.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:16 PM
you’re comparing 1 rhodes season to 7 by edge?
February 8th, 2010 at 1:19 PM
held – you see this? more proof brees and vick were close early in their careers
what more proof about Brees in San Diego do you need than that the Chargers drafted another QB 4 years later? He didn’t start tearing it up for the Chargers until after Rivers was on the roster. And they couldn’t afford to keep them both, nor could they afford to deal Rivers, because of the sunk costs of the bonuses.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:21 PM
Haha sorry about that Dirtheavy, my memory’s not the best. Props to you.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:23 PM
And Brees sat for his rookie season behind Doug Flutie (right?).
February 8th, 2010 at 1:23 PM
held – you see this? more proof brees and vick were close early in their careers
http://twitter.com/MoveTheSticks/status/8815781326
so you won’t believe FO-like stats when it compares Sanchize/Russell, mock someone when they do that w/ Manning/Brady earlier in this thread, and then you do it yourself just now for Bress and Vick. Sweet.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:24 PM
you’re comparing 1 rhodes season to 7 by edge?
What I am comparing is the notion that Edge proved he was a significantly + talent over other talented NFL backs. If you think that Edge’s number should prove that he was an advantage to Manning, then you would expect other backs to not produce as good of numbers than Edge in the same spot (thus showing that Edge’s talent really was a significant +.) Sadly, in football there isn’t much data for this kind of thing, but the piece we do have suggests that Rhodes talent level was a valid substitute for Edge at the time.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:25 PM
Football Outsiders is not a valid source.
Twitter, however, is the Alpha and the Omega of legit sources.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:30 PM
jpq – i never disputed the russell-sanchez stats. 4-5 categories are similar. i had beef with them claiming ‘experience’ (their word) mattered, yet leaving out vital experience info. they never responded that that. in addition, i thought drawing any conclusion from that was laughable.
as for that twitter – it is a former scout who Mort re-tweets all the time. apparently, he knows his fball.
i agree stats are part of the equation. i def dont think they are the entire equation.
(and the Vick-Brees comment was from April 09.)
February 8th, 2010 at 1:31 PM
my bad, wilhelm. The multiple new age social media outlets confuse me
February 8th, 2010 at 1:38 PM
sounds like the issue is with the phrase ‘1st ballot HOF.’ no problem. i’ll back off Edge James being a ‘1st ballot HOF.’
the point remains: Manning had more skill players around him on offense than Brady in those 18 plays off games.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:40 PM
mouthy Edge James
February 8th, 2010 at 1:42 PM
The only thing I took away from this post was that Big Ben is the best QB in the NFL
February 8th, 2010 at 1:45 PM
tbl: the gist of the FO stuff was more a joke from most of us, and, the more serious and intense you got about it, I think it just snowballed.
Nobody really thinks Sanchez is JaMarcus, who is on his way to being THE biggest #1 bust in draft history, when you look at the position, and money paid out, and the universal disgust everyone, even players, have for the guy and his work ethic.
I agree w. you that stats are definitely NOT the whole equation, and exactly why Brees is a winner and Vick is a loser. Brees was never given a chance at any level, due to his size, then his competition (Rivers), then his arm injury. Everything he has gotten he has earned
Vick, on the other hand, has been gifted his entire life, and always praised (revered?) for his athletic ability. However, he never appreciated the gifts he was given, never worked to make himself better, and now he’s never going to be better than an average QB in this league, if that.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:50 PM
jpq nailed it
February 8th, 2010 at 1:55 PM
And here I thought I was the only one.
/88 yards and a TD > 30 yards and a Vinateri FG
February 8th, 2010 at 1:57 PM
So, Geoff, out of curiosity, where did the Colts rank on defense over the last decade or so?
/too lazy to look it up
//this info would have closed the loop nicely on the post
February 8th, 2010 at 2:04 PM
If we’re giving Brady credit for playing with less X-ballot HOFers, then it must be noted that Brady has played for one of the best schemers of a head coach in the history of the league and Manning has played for an underachiever and a never achiever for the last 8 years. Or can we not bring that up because their both really nice guys?
February 8th, 2010 at 2:08 PM
So tired of running into the all on this. You all win, Brady is a system QB who played with a great defense. He is Dilfer 2.0. All Hail Peyton, who culled the team from the dirt of Indiana and rules it with an ironfist of offensive prowess, with no help from coaches and shitty defense.
February 8th, 2010 at 2:13 PM
You mean Aikman 3.0?
February 8th, 2010 at 2:17 PM
Bradshaw -4.11
February 8th, 2010 at 2:31 PM
Just for perspective… here’s Montana’s post season numbers.
23 Games, 16-7 record
5,772 yards
45 TD / 21 INT (11 TD / 0 INT in Super Bowls)
62.7% completion percentage
95.6% QB Rating (127.8% in Super Bowls)
Clearly, the bigger the game, the better he performed. Now that’s a GOAT.
February 8th, 2010 at 3:10 PM
The best player of the last decade was Bernard Pollard.
February 8th, 2010 at 5:18 PM
roarke, colts finished 23rd the year they won. They were consistently weak early on last decade (15th, 31st, 7th, 20th, 19th from 2000-2004.) They’ve been better since: 2nd, 23rd, 1st, 7th, 8th).
good question. Wish I’d included that.